At least 50 dead in Florida nightclub terrorist attack.

[Namor]

I wouldn't call this a broad definition of mental illness.

Even better then, but I wanted to be sure people understood I wasn't giving a clinical definition they could nitpick about from what they read in their psychology class.

I think it's reasonable to suspect that the person who does such kind of attack, knowing that he most likely will be killed after that, has at least some kind of mental health issue.

I think this is too broadly defining mental illness. People die all the time for a cause, especially when it is perceived to be a war for the soul of their society. We have evidence he shared these beliefs. I don't think people like this are mentally unsound unless their families confirm they had problems perceiving reality, even if I disagree with their reasoning.

 

[Rashiminos]

This sentence is insulting faux-moderatist drivel. One side is asking to continue an unproductive, harmful behaviour. The other is asking this unproductive harmful behaviour to stop.

What is the true conciliatory, moderate position?

No need to restate. You want a less moderate position? You've just seen a demonstration. Follow it or don't. Or maybe find a third that suits your "true" moderate criteria without becoming overly harsh (cultural expansion, economic inducements, force of law, etc as opposed to outright violence).

I don't see how this can happen in an adversarial two party system, where all issues must be reduced to two sides and one party for each.

It's routinely acknowledged that neither parties' positions are set in stone, and lack of movement in one region does not imply lack of movement in another region (certain movements that Republicans have avoided out of tradition are gaining ground for them now). More to your point, if you keep shooting down "faux" moderate positions, you have only adversarial ones left. The wider no man's land gets, the harder to cross.

 

[EnglishEdward]

In my opinion people who have mental health problems lack the
coherence to successfully plan and carry out so many murders.

Although I am a slightly religious person, I am aware that people have often
chosen to mis-interpret religion (and political ideology) as a cover for doing ill.


There is an old fashioned word called "EVIL".

 

[chijohnaok]

Given that this fellow was apparently a US citizen, with concealed-carry permits, a history of domestic violence, allegedly being watched by the secret service, suffering from a mental illness and not even a practising Muslim, don't you think that there are quite a few other vectors that need to be dealt with, rather than just radical Islam?

Where do you get the idea that the Orlando shooter was not a practising Muslim?

This according to the Saudi Arabia Interior Ministry:

Omar Mateen, who murdered 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., early Sunday morning, had traveled to Saudi Arabia in two consecutive years, 2011 and 2012, said Saudi Interior Ministry security spokesman Major General Mansour Turki on Monday, the regional Khaleej Times reported.

Turki said Mateen visited for religious reasons, participating in the pilgrimage to Mecca for 10 days in March 2011 and then eight days the following March, according to the newspaper.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-on-fbi-list/article/2593744?custom_click=rss

I would think that someone (a Muslim) traveling twice to Mecca Saudi Arabia on a religious pilgrimage for a duration of almost 3 weeks is an indication of someone who is perhaps practicing Islam.

 

[Kyriakos]

In my opinion people who have mental health problems lack the
coherence to successfully plan and carry out so many murders.

Although I am a slightly religious person, I am aware that people have often
chosen to mis-interpret religion (and political ideology) as a cover for doing ill.


There is an old fashioned word called "EVIL".

Not sure if this person needed to plan much, given apparently he didn't expect to get out alive. So he only had to get in and shoot.

If you don't mind dieing, and you have access to guns, you likely will take a lot of people with you.

 

[luiz]

He also managed to keep the police away for several hours by apparently implying it was a hostage situation. So either he has an evil kind of luck, or he was well informed on how law enforcement operates.

 

[Arakhor]

Where do you get the idea that the Orlando shooter was not a practising Muslim?

I was going with what I'd read in the early aftermath, but yes, apparently going on Hajj would indicate he was religious. Of course, that doesn't wholly explain the issue any more than going to Santiago de Compostela would.

 

[Kaitzilla]

...Then a man who'd been in the club where the slaughter took place said the cellphones of the dead were ringing continually as the police secured the area.

Sad.

That is the saddest thing I've heard in many years.
RIP to the victims of the insane murderer.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

He also managed to keep the police away for several hours by apparently implying it was a hostage situation. So either he has an evil kind of luck, or he was well informed on how law enforcement operates.

I believe he did have hostages, and he wound up killing them anyway. That's why the body count doubled.

 

[Hygro]

Armed queers bash back. That's about all I have to say about this.

I don't know about you but I don't want to attend any discos where people are strapped.

 

[uppi]

That's why I said that I'm all for gun control in general, but using this specific case to argue for gun control is wrong, because gun laws do not prevent terrorism. And this guy was a terrorist, as is becoming clearer and clearer.

Gun control by itself does not prevent terrorism, but it raises the bar for terrorists and makes it easier to prevent terrorists acts like this one. With a lone-wolf shooter who has legal weapons, there is literally nothing law enforcement can do to prevent it, even if they know it is coming. The first illegal thing this man did was to kill people, and by then it is too late.

If he had had no legal access to guns, he might have gotten noticed during his attempt to get illegal weapons and there would have been a valid reason to imprison him before the attack. There is no guarantee that this would have happened, but there would have been at least a chance for it.

A terrorist conspiracy will always have some way to get illegal weapons, but you can prevent a conspiracy by infiltration or surveillance, methods that cannot stop a lone gunman.

 

[Flying Pig]

Given how well alcohol and firearms mix, one out of the two of the disco and the 'self-defence' are going to be awful in that situation.

 

[Farm Boy]

Given how well alcohol and firearms mix, one out of the two of the disco and the 'self-defence' are going to be awful in that situation.

Granted things are different in the lands of the Uber, but the DD keeps his CCW(though if he's going in the bar, oftentimes that winds up in the car, depends on the joint), the drinkers leave it at home. At least when you're old enough to be responsible-ish when you go out to be irresponsible.

 

[Namor]

I think both points are true. Are guns and alcohol likely a bad combination in a loud nightclub where the adrenaline is going? Yes.

Would just a few being armed have likely ended the rampage sooner? Yes. Even if you take the argument that a few people would be caught in the crossfire as a given, many more lives would have been saved.

How do you reconcile these things? I don't know, that's what this thread is for.

 

[Old Hippy]

He also managed to keep the police away for several hours by apparently implying it was a hostage situation. So either he has an evil kind of luck, or he was well informed on how law enforcement operates.

maybe he was obsessed with mass shootings and obtained his information off American TV and the internet. As would anyone who watches Hollywood action films or news reports about mass shootings from around the world. Not really a sign of jihadist training, tho it could be Nor dose it rule out mental illness or suicide by cop, or wanting the record for mass killings or a hate crime against the LGBTQ community.
maybe he was just mad at Trump and disconnected with society
we will never know

 

[Arakhor]

I would presume that guns and alcohol are always a bad combination.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think both points are true. Are guns and alcohol likely a bad combination in a loud nightclub where the adrenaline is going? Yes.

Would just a few being armed have likely ended the rampage sooner? Yes. Even if you take the argument that a few people would be caught in the crossfire as a given, many more lives would have been saved.

How do you reconcile these things? I don't know, that's what this thread is for.

Personally, I think a disco and firearms sounds like an awful combination, alcohol aside. Close-quarters fighting is confusing enough without crowds of civilians running around, trying to hide, and generally being inconvenient between you and an indeterminate number of enemy. I can only imagine that it gets an awful lot worse when you throw those in, and do the whole thing in a dark building with loud music, smoke and lights going all over the place. You have a handful of frightened civilian men with guns, looking around and seeing shadows of men with guns - even assuming that they all shoot straight, that's a recipe for a mess, put politely.

 

[Farm Boy]

CCWs aren't for fixing messes. They're for being in messes. The police are for cleaning the mess.

 

[Namor]

maybe he was obsessed with mass shootings and obtained his information off American TV and the internet. As would anyone who watches Hollywood action films or news reports about mass shootings from around the world. Not really a sign of jihadist training, tho it could be Nor dose it rule out mental illness or suicide by cop, or wanting the record for mass killings or a hate crime against the LGBTQ community.
maybe he was just mad at Trump and disconnected with society
we will never know

He didn't receive any official training most likely, but there are these dudes out there who have visited Orlando and are in Florida and around the country who call themselves scholars and preach that giving gays the death penalty is a holy act. And preach jihadist rhetoric in many other cases as well.

Maybe we should be doing more about these individuals inciting violence in particular, and check the guy's computer to see if he was influenced by them too?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I don't know about you but I don't want to attend any discos where people are strapped.

You might now.