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Atheism as Religion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Maverick667, May 9, 2007.

  1. Onagan

    Onagan The Dutch

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    please don't call me a Christian. And it's not that I don't want believe in something. It's because I can't believe in something special.

    I would be happy if any public display of religion would be banned, I mean, I don't want to hear the churchbells every sunday.

    and Atheists have a common believe, believing that there is nothing special. and I have also a goal in my life. Make my wife and children happy.
     
  2. Ceritoglu

    Ceritoglu Janissary

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    Atheism is a theological stance, not a religion. However, Atheists belong in one of three categories. They're either:

    Tolerant Atheists

    These Atheists could be defined as 'moderate' and believe that - though they oppose the theistic principles of many religions - religion isn't harmful per se. A large portion of Atheists belong in this group, quietly of the opinion that religion is nothing more than superstition...but harmless in essence (rather like the astrology section in the papers).

    Evangelical Atheists

    What could be defined as extremists or radicals, this branch of Atheism believes that theism is both false and harmful to humanity. They believe that through 'missionary' activity, they can spread the good word and create a happy, godless world where none of this dangerous and silly religious nonsense is espoused.

    Indifferent Atheists

    These are Atheists that believe faith in a god or many gods is harmful and ought to be challenged, but frankly don't possess the zeal or enthusiasm that many of their theistic counterparts harbour.

    Then, there's an entirely different group altogether.

    Agnostics

    Those who are bamboozled by religion and have objections to it because of their modern values, but haven't seen enough evidence to go either way on the split road of theology. A lot of people who are cast as Atheists are in fact Agnostic - these people constitute a large proportion of the public. Many Agnostics even participate in the occasional religious ceremony (they might go to Church evey other decade), and simply don't feel confident enough to talk about faith.

    So how does this relate to cIV?

    Doesn't really, just thought I'd go into an interesting digression on the nature of Atheism :p. Aside from Evangelical Atheism which can be claimed to have religious characteristics, none of the branches of Atheism (or Agnosticism) exhibit the recognisable facets of religion.
     
  3. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    It seems most goals atheist have are also goals people from religions have. It is just that to a person of faith, they rank "religious goals" over common worldly goals. This is the difference in the two.
    Atheists only form of "belief system" is politics. Whereas someone with faith beliefs that there is something above politics. A Supreme Order, not just the law of the land.
    This is why there should be no "religion" of atheism in civ. It should simply replace paganism as the first religious civic with no bonuses. As once you remove any form of religion from earth, the "Supreme Order" becomes Polotics. And that is what the rest of the civic chains are for.
     
  4. Onagan

    Onagan The Dutch

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    I think Atheism in Civ most be equal with religions. And have the bonus also. It's not a Civic without bonuses. We're not bad. We're equal.
     
  5. Ceritoglu

    Ceritoglu Janissary

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    I find it absurd that you equate Paganism with Atheism - one involves ritual religious practices while the other completely shuns this as superstition. Paganism is nothing but an insulting term cast upon pre-Christian faiths by the Romans - however, the fact remains that paganism is as much of a faith as Christianity, Islam or Judaism (for example).

    As for "belief systems" - you're overlooking a great school of thought within the Atheistic and Secular tradition. This is Humanism. I believe the International Humanist and Ethical Union (the IHEU) is an example of an organisation which sets out a belief system of ethics and morality. I hope I've understood what you mean by "belief system" - and that I've explained that Atheists do indeed have much more deep and meaningful beliefs.
     
  6. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    Atheism functioning as a religion doesn't make any sense. Atheism is the lack of religious belief. And it is not a government stance, it's a personal decision. So basically, free religion is representative of this, since free religion has no state religion. Free religion represents atheism well because it represents an individual's choice to practice or not practice religion.

    To say atheism should have an increased science rate is absurd. Just as much (maybe more) discovery can be credited to religion and people practicing science out of religious convictions as can be credited to atheist scientists. To say that religion and science are mutually exclusive is ignorant, just as it is to say that atheism and science always go hand in hand.
     
  7. Sidus

    Sidus Chieftain

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    I do not really like the idea. Free religion is pretty much atheism, its let the population belive what they want, and be free about it. And as an atheist myself I do not see myself belonging to any "organization" as such, and most others I know do not either. By enforicng atheism as a "state religion" you make a statment about that "this country belive in this consept and we define ourselves by it".

    And btw, I am a first time poster to the forums, been reading it a long time tho. So Hi! :)
     
  8. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    Sorry Atheism is not equal to religion. It is a "N/A" checkbox. Atheists do not have churches. Or places to gather and discuss their "religious" beliefs, or lack thereof.

    Atheism is the lack of religious foundation.

    I don't. Paganism is a religion. I have always thought that Atheism should replace the civic spot known as paganism. But technically in-game you Atheism comes in when you don't have a religion or is always there by a % of the population.

    Well, truthfully, I was unaware of this organization, however, I didn't doubt one existed. But really this only applies to someone considering themselves a humanist. This organization cannot identify a common goal or belief in all atheists. All they can do is generalize. I don't really want to get into a heated debate over the subject honestly.
    My stance is though that Atheism doesn't need a place in civ. I don't see why an atheist would want it there. Actually, I would think an Atheist's arguement about religion in civ is that it is too neccessary in the game.
     
  9. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    King Flevance, you're showing a lot of ignorance about atheism, its belief system and the organisations that promote it. And a lot of arrogance about Christianity and religion that is to be expected from someone living in the US midwest.

    I suggest a good place to go for information would be http://www.infidels.org/

    This may lift many of your misconceptions about atheism. Chiefly that atheism is simply the lack of a religion, which is not only wrong, but insulting.
     
  10. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Real followers of atheism (of which i am) also have a goal in life that's related to their faith, which is to promote science over superstition, and to free people of this very harmful thing called religion. Richard Dawkins is the perfect example of a person doing just that, and one of my two personal heroes (the other being Aristotles who also promoted the importance of reason above all other things).
     
  11. Tekee

    Tekee Bahama Mama

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    OMG No effin Atheist Religion
    Like how stupid can an Atheist Church be? and 7 is the magic number kept in for balance
    There has always existed Atheism but it never had a big impact on History, there is religion wars no Atheism wars
    Maybe as a religious CIVIC but not a religion with Temples and Monasteries and Cathedrals!
    For gods sake Atheist Cathedrals ? Like anything cultural that can be adopted by anyone of any religion? This has got to be a joke or i don't beleive it becuase this Atheist boards just want to piss everyone off :)
     
  12. Tekee

    Tekee Bahama Mama

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    Reason above all things? I think you are Humanist! Not ATheist! And Humanism grew in Europe in 15 century!
     
  13. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Regarding your first post :

    First of all, there's no need to be insulting, except if your goal is to show your own small-mindedness.

    There are atheist organisations, rallys, conferences, meetings, etc. An athiest temple? How about a library! An atheist monastery? How about a university!

    There's a lot more about atheism than you think, and it's also much more organised (read: organised religion) than you think. Read up a bit, do some research, and you'll see.

    As for your last post :

    1. Humanism is a branch of atheism, just like catholicism is a branch of christanity.
    2. I don't consider myself a humanist, but do consider myself an atheist (and no, i'm definitely not an agnostic). I think i should know better than you what i am.
     
  14. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    ^
    Then the brand of scientific atheism you represent is already well-represented in the game by science already--thus not needing a religion slot--don't you think?
     
  15. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Not really. Science itself says nothing about religion. It is neither theist nor atheist. An athiest movement does exist, and though it bases some of its arguments on science, it is not in itself science, nor does it represent science, nor does science represent atheism.
     
  16. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    Well, yes. However, I'd think that this atheistic movement would be implied in the shift from monasteries to laboratories in Civ terms.
     
  17. Gilder

    Gilder Deity

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    There isn't any point to adding it. How do you spread it? There's no concrete movement or foundations aside from a lack of belief in any sort of god. It's pointless.
     
  18. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    There are actually concrete movements and foundations, and there are people spreading the word, people like Richard Dawkins (who would need to be added to the list of Great Prophets). It is spread through books (especially books that set out to explain atheism, the concepts and the reasoning behind it, like for instance "The Blind Watchmaker") and education.

    Atheism spreads in the same way that all religions do. Also, like all religions, if your parents are atheists, you're more likely to become an atheist yourself.
     
  19. RVallant

    RVallant Chieftain

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    At the risk of being whipped >_> just go for Buddhism... It's one of the "religions" more commonly described as "atheist".

    Seriously though, I think Free Religion civic is the same thing for the moment... Although Wikipedia mentions Albania being the first atheism state by closing down all religious places of worship... so... :confused:
     
  20. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Richard Dawkins himself, who might know nothing about Civ 4, made an interesting point to warrant the inclusion of atheism as a religion in the game. I came across it just now, and thought it would be nice to share with this forum :

     

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