1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Atheism as Religion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Maverick667, May 9, 2007.

  1. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    Yes but who wrote the bible? A man did.

    And when did he write it? Before other men learned the secrets of archaeology, carbon dating, and how to identify fossil records.

    So in the time since that was written, man has learned that animals were here on earth long before people. Why is the biblical idea of man unable to learn from his mistakes and revise his theories? You know, kind of like a scientist does.
     
  2. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Never heard that before. :rolleyes:
    Actually, it was wrote by the Holy Spirit that is part of the trinity that is God on Earth.

    And "he" was right. Even according to science.

    The bible says that animals were made first.
     
  3. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,867
    Location:
    One step ahead of the authorities
    All this is irrelevant. Animals cannot reason and are not capable of purposeful action. Under these circumstances, it is nonsense to claim that they have any rights. It makes exactly as much sense to claim that a flower, or even a rock, has rights.

    Ultimately, the claim that animals have any kind of rights is really an infringement on the rights of other human beings. When environmentalists claim that whole forests should be shut down from logging in order to protect some critter that no one had ever heard of, that is an attack on my right to buy lumber at an affordable right. By stealing from me, they get self-righteous satisfaction.

    The claim usually almost specious anyway, not supported by facts in any way. Doesn't stop them.
     
  4. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    So let me get this straight. The holy spirit wrote out millions of copies of the bible by hand? Because prior to a few hundred years ago there were no printing presses. Even if you accept that your holy spirit magically wrote the first copy, man has been translating it (at times incorrectly), copying it (with his own modifications to suit the times of course) and altering it purposefully (just compare any modern bible to the earliest known copies) since the beginning. You are going to trust that the early church didn't make any mistakes? Their track record is not good, what with allowing people to buy forgiveness and the whole earth as the center of the universe thing.

    Forgive me. My recollection of antiquated history books filled with errors is not as good as it should be. My bad.

    Apparently god doesn't consider viruses to be alive. We haven't really figured out how to master them yet. Oh and cancer cells. They are technically living cells. If you have mastered them, please share. Millions of dying people would love your help.
     
  5. civvver

    civvver Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,854
    I was making a very simplified argument, perhaps with a hint of sarcasm. Let me expand.

    First it seems very ignorant to say that someone wouldn't fear hell unless they were contemplating suicide. Fear of hell has nothing to do with killing yourself, and not all religions/faiths believe suicide is cause for damnation. You're right, hell is not a universal belief between all religions.

    But generally, religions believe in reward and punishment. Punishment can make you fearful or unhappy. Strict catholics, jews, muslims etc all adhere to very strict rules within their faiths and sometimes that can create a lot of pressure on a person and make him unhappy. And it goes beyond psychology and spirituality- some religions are very intolerant of behaviors or ideas so there can be major social consequences.

    Religion and faith can provide great happiness and fulfillment for some people, but at the same time can be cause for great distress. That is what I was getting at. I don't see how being an atheist can make one any more happy than a christian for example, but I can see how in some case it could make you less unhappy. Make sense?

    So really, the only thing an atheist civic could do in my opinion is change diplomacy in some way. Saying it should result in more science is ridiculous.
     
  6. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    The argument that atheism would increase science is based on the stance that religious groups have taken against science throughout the centuries. The delay in accepting the earth wasn't the center of the universe, the refusal to accept the merits of Darwin's evolution, etc.

    I don't happen to agree with it, because the view of religious groups doesn't actually stop scientists from discovering anything. The people who are doing the research are not the ones on the talking head tv shows arguing with the ultra conservative religious groups about commonly accepted theories. The people making discoveries are working in their fields, completely ignoring religious criticisms of their work that are not based on facts.
     
  7. civvver

    civvver Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,854

    Saying religion hinders scientific discovery is far different, imo, from saying atheism encourages scientific discovery.
     
  8. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Your missing the entire idea of what the Holy Spirit is. The Old Testament was wrote mostly by Moses. A faithful man. He did as the Lord commanded him to do. He wrote what he was commanded to write. This man and other followers feared God's wrath. I don't think they were allowing themselves too much margin for error.

    I am going to trust Jesus lives in every Christian seeking the Kingdom of Heaven and the forgiveness of the Lord. Because Jesus lives in them, or through them, then the message is always going to remain the truth. The gospel is interpretted through the heart, where the Holy spirit resides.

    Hehe. Christians can't buy forgiveness. Jesus bought that for us. We cannot gain it on our own. Also, space is infinite in every direction fromthe Earth as far as we know. How do you know it isn't the center?


    Well, personally if God doesn't consider them alive - I believe him over man. Maybe they just appear to be alive. Maybe their life actually comes from the animal they reside in and not the other way around. Or maybe he didn't want to blow the minds of his prophets back in the day to let them in on the fact the tiny organisms are crawling all over them and inside of them because he just didn't see that as what's important. He already tells us that these bodies will one day be gone and that anyone who clings to this life will lose it.
     
  9. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    And now it is you that is simply wrong. In the middle ages it was common practice for rich men to be able to buy forgiveness for their sins and buy entrance into heaven. Eventually the church realized they were wrong and banned the practice.

    Churches also claimed the earth was at the center of our solar system and that the sun revolved around it. Do you seriously not know that, or are you just trying to be difficult? If it is the former, I apologize for sounding condescending. I mean no disrespect.

    Words like "infinite" are convenient for religious fanatics because it implies the limits can never be known. Yet we can estimate the mass in the universe. And you are wrong, we already know that the milky way is nowhere near the center of the universe, so anything inside it (such as earth, our sun, etc) cannot be at the center. You should have covered that in geometry class. Unless god opposes geometry too I guess.
     
  10. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    You are just being silly now. You have given up all attempts at a rational argument and simply throwing out random fabricated "what if" scenarios.
     
  11. Maverick667

    Maverick667 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    Guys please I didn't start this thread so you could go bashing religious or atheist ppl...

    let everyone believe what they want...

    and if you must bring arguments for believing or not do so without insulting ppl...
     
  12. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    But that doesn't mean they were right and you could buy forgiveness. The bible itself teaches that in order to have treasure in heaven you should sell all your belongings and give it to the poor. Also, Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven because a rich man has a harder time knowing what it is he needs in his life because he feels he has everything.

    Well, now I am just having fun. Maybe trying to be difficult for fun since you are too. You see me as wrong and are trying to prove it. I see you as wrong but am aware I cannot prove it to you alone. I mean these arguements are so slanted its pretty comical. At one time scientists believed the Earth was flat. By your logic, once we found out it was actually round we should have abandoned science. Because no one is allowed to be wrong. The churches claimed this because that is what they divulged from tthe information of doctrines mixed with the scientific evidence at the time.
    Science and outside factors are weighed into religions with what is known as Theology. By taking what we know about the world, applying it to what God says in the bible (or whatever other religions do) and then interpreting the answer. If science is wrong, so will be the assumed answer. The bible tells us about the world we live on, so does science. Science has not disproven the bible about anything yet. 2,000 years is a pretty good track record I would say. It may have disproven the church's past teachings but not the Word of God itself.

    Yeah, the idea of infinite is convenient for religios people. Or Christians anyways because God is infinite. Maybe thats why He made space infinite. Hehe, to give us something to play with in these debates that rarely ever end. Because now I can just say how do you know the universe isn't the center of all existance? :lol: ;)
     
  13. Maverick667

    Maverick667 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    I like your point no one is ever going to prove the other wrong, at least I believe not in our lifes ;)

    still, Science has no problem in atmitting it's wrong, science likes it when it is proven wrong because this moves our knowledge up a level.
     
  14. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,568
    Location:
    Estonia
    That is how it SHOULD be, not how it is. Judging from that statement, I bet all my earthly possessions that you are not too frequent in scientific circles. :lol: Scientific dogmas nowadays are sometimes even more petrified than religious dogmas have ever been... :blush:
     
  15. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    267
    First of all..no. That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. I am saying people are wrong all the time, including whoever wrote down the words in the version of the bible that you read today. Every scientist basically assumes their theory will be proven at least partially wrong at some point. It is admitting your mistakes and coming up with better theories that advance science. This is where the bible fails. Because it is frozen in time, it cannot be adapted to incorporate modern learnings, and therefore loses more and more credibility as time goes by. There are numerous places where science directly contradicts tenets of the bible. Just do a google search to see them all.

    Second, your geometry is failing you again. Even if our universe is the center of all being, our earth is not at the center of our universe. So it cannot be the center of everything. You aren't even challenging my brain anymore.
     
  16. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,867
    Location:
    One step ahead of the authorities
    I find it amusing to find that I was accused of this given that I have consistently been defending religion on this thread.
     
  17. Comrade Aart

    Comrade Aart Civ1 diplomat

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    225
    Location:
    People's republic of Sesamestreet
    Just like Joseph Smith!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
     
  18. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    First of all...no. :D The Holy Spirit (Or God on Earth) wrote the bible, not people. He just used their hands. Nowdays he uses their eyes and minds and hearts to interpret what he already wrote. According to science, man wrote the bible. According to the bible, God wrote it through the Holy Spirit. I believe the bible.

    No. This is where the church fails. Because the church relies on interpretation of the OT from both the NT and science.

    Which part might that be?

    You google. If they are so abundant I am sure you can dig up 1 for me. It's your arguement, you dig it up. I am not hung on this debate. At any given moment that I lose interest, I will end up ceasing to post on the matter any further. I already learned that people that like to debate the bible always have a response. Which is good don't get me wrong, but as a friend of mine says, the word of the Lord is inexhaustible.

    No but our universe is the center. And if we are the only intelligent being in the Universe, or existance than existance revolves around us as in our universe not our planet. And actually, who says the universe isn't off-center putting us in the middle? :lol:
     
  19. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,568
    Location:
    Estonia
    First, there are lots of people as well, who imho could also be described as incapable of reasoning and purposeful action:lol:
    Second, the fact that you may have never heard of "that critter" might just show your ignorance... Go figure...:mischief:
    Bottom line is, that "human rights" actually are just devised to stop foolish and ignorant harming everybody, including themselves. Who says you have a right to live, for instance? That is an infringement on somebody's right to have fun taking you for a target practice:ar15: :run:
    However, anarchy hardly makes life better (although that is what some believe). In that respect, it makes perfect sense to have "animal rights" as well (or "tree rights", for God's sake) - just to constrain people, who would log everything for quick profit and then wonder, why they are facing dust storms and air pollution.
     
  20. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898

    Of course, there are many blends of atheism. The reason i said "real followers of atheism" was to counter the post which said "real followers of religion", and not because i believe that people who don't fit this bill are not "real followers of atheism".
     

Share This Page