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Atheism as Religion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Maverick667, May 9, 2007.

  1. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Actually, SCIENCE doesn't consider viruses to be alive (by the most common definitions of life anyway), and we HAVE figured out how to master them, and use them in many fields (for example, we use viruses to inject DNA into cells for purposes of genetic engineering).

    Don't talk about stuff you don't know.
     
  2. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    The vast majority of people understand what is good for themselves and work to better their lives. This is what I mean by being capable of purposeful action. Animals, in contrast, are stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over.

    Yeah. Riiight. To my chagrin, I learn the names of this critters when the econuts make yet another assault in their endless war against the human race.
    In a free world people negotiate right with each other. As a consequence they tend to be symmetric in nature. E.g we mutually agree, among other things, that neither of us has the right to take the other's life. Under the state, rights are extracted from other people by force. In both cases, animals have no say in the matter. This is why it is absurd to claim they have rights, in any meaningful sense of the term. The animals who live in my house have the right to life because I deign to give it to them. No other reason. In the same vein when the econuts decide to use political means to ban logging, this is a fight between various groups of humans. The winners in such fights are those with the stronger political weapons. The owls, like the trees, are nothing but tools.
    People take care of their property. Private forests do not get logged out. Corruption is an inevitable aspect of the state and the solution to such destructive activities is to get the parasites out of the way and let decent folk take care things.
     
  3. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    Far 'nuff.
     
  4. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

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    Well now we finally found something we agree on. I have already lost interest. I will now go debate my beagle because he can read and understand my points with almost as much comprehension as you are playfully showing.

    But should I ever find the holy spirit guiding my hand to write silly stories, I promise you I shall schedule a consult with my local exorcist.
     
  5. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

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    Somebody has a god complex. Or is it a Napoleon complex? By any chance are you freakishly short?

    You know, psychiatrists will say on of the surest signs of sociopathic behaviours in humans is the torture and killing of animals. Let me know if you "deign" to end the life of the animals you co-habitate with. I will gladly take them in for you and phone the state as well. They have low tolerance for cruelty to animals.
     
  6. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    You can reconsider this statement next time you see somebody smoke, drink alcohol, visit McDonalds, have casual unprotected sex, wear high heels, pierce of cut himself and so on and so forth.

    Also, I am sure that the inhabitants of Easter Island were also perfectly aware of what was good for them - namely erecting infinite stone statues for their clan's prestige (so they could be remembered in second expansion pack for Civ4). Pity their best intentions brought along some unforeseen results, utter decay of their island and standard of life among them. Lucky at least they did not have any econuts to wage one more war against them, eh?

    Disclaimer: The above does not mean, that each and every action, allegedly taken to preserve of protect nature is perfectly sensible. "Econuts" are also just people, therefore they are at times foolish, wrong or both. But if a certain logging ban indeed helps to protect an endangered specie of animal, flower or bird, then it is a perfectly good reason for it. That was simply a very bad example you brought.

    EDIT: "Private forests do not get logged out" is about as valid statement as to say, that private firms do not go bankrupt. That does not mean responsible forestry is not possible - it very much is. However, any good legislator knows, that people's own responsibility and wits should be trusted only when their foolishness can't harm anybody else but themselves.

    EDIT: Also: Yes, it supposedly takes (took) a sort of mutual reasoning to reach a conclusion that one man should not take life from another. However, if one party is not able to speak up for himself, does it somehow alter the conclusion? Just because an animal can't reason with you the way a man could, does not a priori mean that taking his life is more beneficial for common good. "Human rights" are sensible conclusion of an agreement, as you correctly brought out. "Animal rights" may well be that same conclusion without a need for agreement first. Of course, that can easily get ridiculous. But we should not say that bare notion of it is absurd.
     
  7. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    AFAIK, the question "Are Viruses Alive?" has been under a heated debate for last 100 years or so and I fear that scientific community is pretty far from final consensus yet. Just an educational note:)
     
  8. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    So, uh, founding Atheism as a religion would cause the religious Civs to declare war on the founder.

    The U.N. can only be exclusively Atheist or Religious. Those with Free Religion are considered "Atheist" because they fail to see "The Truth" (not the old hippie, by the way).

    Atheists get a slight boost in their scientific buildings, but they end up with a very unhappy population because the masses are usually religious, educated or not.

    The founder of Atheism get Richard Dawkins, the man who turned atheism into a fanatical crusade against the evils of religion. He'll probably end up no better than the inquisitors, but that is yet to be seen, so in the game he'll just cause the masses to unhappy.

    Of course, America will always be Christian, no doubt about it (even under massive religious diplomatic penalties -- see "War on Terrorism").

    Then the world ends in the Evangelical Rapture. But God found no-one to be "good" so nobody really notices the Rapture. In fact, God has been holding off Armageddon because every time he tries to bring the "good" up into heaven, he finds nobody (or everyone he brings up are old hermits who he can't possibly expect to repopulate the new Earth).

    So, right. :suicide:
     
  9. Rancid Sushi

    Rancid Sushi Last year's catch

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    ^^People don't get into heaven by being good. Only grace can save you.
     
  10. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    ^What you believe depends on how you were indoctrinated, ye knave! :mad:

    :lol: . . . No, seriously, it does.
     
  11. Slobadog

    Slobadog King

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    Or maybe animals are not physically capable of getting out of of ruts. If i was stuck in a cage all day or out in the wild constantly having to make sure i eat and don't get eaten i might behave really repetitivly too.
     
  12. rabidveggie

    rabidveggie King

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    Nobody is perfect in Gods eyes since as soon as we come into the world we get original sin already against us. No matter how good a person you are you won't get into heaven unless you're Mormon.
     
  13. Tekee

    Tekee Bahama Mama

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    LOl that ZombieGuy is annoying :p
    Like since when has the Library been an Atheist Temple?!
    You have Rallies? nothing I ever heard of but I did hear of Jihad and the Crusades
    And the creation of Libraries and Universities is not a Atheist sensation! the first Universities were CHRISTIAN Universities, so when has the first *atheist* founded the first University
    This is really stupid and you say Atheists are smart and I am only "small-minded"?
    becuase I think that Atheism is not a religion at all and I would hate seeing "Isabella has founded Atheism" in my games
     
  14. Rancid Sushi

    Rancid Sushi Last year's catch

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    Except I wouldn't call myself 'indoctrinated.' I was a nihilist for most of my life.
     
  15. bds

    bds Warlord

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    Uhhhg, dam threads being spammed while i was asleep...

    It is true that we believe we are more important than animals (its senseless to put animals before humans), but that is does not in the slightest bit explain this supposed mistreatment of animals. In the early parts of the bible it give mans purpose for being created as to take care of all of gods creation's... quite the reverse IMO.
     
  16. Maverick667

    Maverick667 Warlord

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    The remark wasn't intended for you ;)
     
  17. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    People, I think that if this thread continues to be a spam fest on the Bible, animal rights, and anything of the kind, it will at the very least get cut in half and the spammy bits put in OT. Where they belong, in my opinion, because there's been so much utter rubbish posted in the last two pages (from all sides) that I wouldn't know where to begin refuting it all.

    Spoiler :
    I will say, however, that Genesis 2:4-9, 19 expressly states that human beings were created before animals (this is part of the "second creation story" of Genesis, contradicting 1:1-2:3, which has animals created before human beings). Moreover, medieval indulgences were not meant to buy you salvation - they were meant to buy you less time in purgatory, which is not the same thing. And to say that someone has a "right" is simply a circumlocution for the fact that other people have responsibilities towards them, so there is no need to have responsibilities yourself, or purpose, or the ability to negotiate, in order to be considered to have rights. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with killing newborn babies.
     
  18. Maverick667

    Maverick667 Warlord

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    Hehe yeah almost forgot we we're talking about Civ ;)
     
  19. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    Plotinus, you must continue in your efforts to bring some semblance of intellectual debate into this thread filled with (in my guess) guesses, half-researched material, and passionate writing. It will do the community good. Of course there is the risk of closure due to the number of OT posts spiraling out of control.

    My stand on the inclusion of atheism as a in-game religion: considering all other religions, atheism is generally similar to them all except for one factor, which would be culture. Aside from spawning highly anti-religious and fanatical people (like Dawkins), atheism has neither inspired architectural styles nor does it have a universal (and corruptible) systematic code of conduct (of course, "refusing to believe in the supernatural" is common, but not exactly systematic) that would define its followers' lifestyles.
     
  20. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    [flyingchicken] Thanks for the confidence there, but really, there's a reason the forum as an OT section. Now I used to post in there quite a lot, but gave up because of precisely the sort of content you complain about here. As I said before, I started a thread not long ago for the sensible discussion of such matters, so I'm happy to discuss them there if anyone wants to. And I don't mind if someone starts another thread in OT and mentions it to me (I wouldn't see it otherwise).

    I agree with your final point. The basic reason why atheism is not a religion, from either a Civ or a reality point of view, is that it's a belief. And a belief may be part of a religion, but a belief in itself is not a religion. A religion is a sociological phenomenon that involves things such as belief, liturgy, social activities, ethical codes, distinctive language, and other elements too.
     

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