Athenian Tireme As Greek UU

[Elite Hoplite]

Hi, the Greek Hoplite was at that time great. But the Athenian navy was much more stonger and was more successful in battle. The hoplite had acomplished many successful and unseccessful battles. The Athenian navy was the best in history I think. So shouldn't the Athenian Tireme a UU AS WELL as the Hoplite?

 

[Enigma256]

naval UU are far too limited in use

 

[Martinus]

Yeah, especially in early game.

 

[AlessioCerci]

You seem to be suggesting two UUs which would be seriously unbalanced. And the phalanx (which cshould be called the hoplite) is a better choice as the UU than the Athenian Trireme as it has way more use. A trireme replacement UU would be very un-useful

 

[Elite Hoplite]

Yes the tireme is ussless but this would be a good choice if naval comabt was important as well as land based. One of Greeks most successful battles, battle of Salamis was accomplished from greek tireme.

 

[Indiansmoke]

A trireme UU would propably be overpowered as it is a long time before caravels

 

[SwordofStriker]

Hi, the Greek Hoplite was at that time great. But the Athenian navy was much more stonger and was more successful in battle. The hoplite had acomplished many successful and unseccessful battles. The Athenian navy was the best in history I think. So shouldn't the Athenian Tireme a UU AS WELL as the Hoplite?

The Spartan navy crushed the Athenian navy during the Peloponnesian War, so I'd venture to say that they were far from the best in history.

 

[Freedom]

Don't think I've ever even made a trimere.... :/

 

[Pangur Bán]

Naval UUs suck unless you're on a certain kind of map. Anyways, why would you call it the "Athenian" trireme when you are suggesting it be a general Greek UU? It's not like Athenian triremes were better, and only a small percentage of Athens navy actually came from Athens anyways. The Greek civ is already preposterously Athens-centered.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

The Spartan navy crushed the Athenian navy during the Peloponnesian War, so I'd venture to say that they were far from the best in history.

Oh, no. The Spartans hardly ever dared to take to the seas, and whenever they did, they were crushed. They got rid of the navy when they caught it in port and burned it. That was pretty much the nail in the coffin for Athens.

 

[SwordofStriker]

Oh, no. The Spartans hardly ever dared to take to the seas, and whenever they did, they were crushed. They got rid of the navy when they caught it in port and burned it. That was pretty much the nail in the coffin for Athens.

Right, but I was referring to the OP's descriptor of best in regards to the Athenian navy. The best navy in the world would hardly allow you to destroy the bulk of it's fleet on a beach IMO. Even though the Athenian navy was mostly destroyed while beached, the end result was the same.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Right, but I was referring to the OP's descriptor of best in regards to the Athenian navy. The best navy in the world would hardly allow you to destroy the bulk of it's fleet on a beach IMO. Even though the Athenian navy was mostly destroyed while beached, the end result was the same.

Its destruction was the result of the chaos, not due to the fault of the trireme's design, and certainly had nothing to do with the Spartan navy being superior. One defeat hardly subtracts from Athenian naval dominance of the era. It is like removing Redcoats for losing Yorktown.

 

[SwordofStriker]

Okay maybe I should explain what I'm comparing it to then. The Southern Song Dynasty of China for example built the largest navy in the world and dominated the seas from China to East Africa until it was scuttled to focus more on "inward perfection."

That was the most powerful navy of it's time and it didn't get burned by the enemy. To me, that trumps a navy that allows all but 12 of it's ships to be burned on a beach. That is the point I'm trying to make in regards to the Athenian navy not being the best in the world.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Okay maybe I should explain what I'm comparing it to then. The Southern Song Dynasty of China for example built the largest navy in the world and dominated the seas from China to East Africa until it was scuttled to focus more on "inward perfection."

That was the most powerful navy of it's time and it didn't get burned by the enemy. To me, that trumps a navy that allows all but 12 of it's ships to be burned on a beach. That is the point I'm trying to make in regards to the Athenian navy not being the best in the world.

I'm well-aware. But China and Athens had no influence upon eachother. Though China's navy was superior, it didn't affect the Mediterranean in anyway. The Athenians...indeed, many Greek poleis, were famous for their naval prowess. If you're talking strictly Hellas proper, then a trireme is the way to go UU-wise(the Spartans weren't special, they just popped an early GG and settled him )
Of course, they've gone with a broader(IMO, better) definition that includes at least Makedonia.

 

[Elite Hoplite]

The Athenian navy was the best in the Medditeranean... Even the Athenians once took over the Spartans after the Persian invasion. There was no battle in navy between Athens and Sparta.

 

[Larklight]

say, +1 speed and +1 strength? Actually, that would remove any need to upgrade to Caravels, but maybe that's not so bad.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

say, +1 speed and +1 strength? Actually, that would remove any need to upgrade to Caravels, but maybe that's not so bad.

You'd still need caravels to enter oceans. A strength bonus would be kinda excessive though...myabe just better movement and a first strike or something...

 

[IamJohn]

sorry, I don't think I've built more then a couple triremes ever, and in any case, if we wanted another naval UU it should definitely be the viking longboat, not another trireme that wasn't all that horribly unique.

 

[Larklight]

Wasn't unique? The Greeks ruled the seas, defeating vastly more numerous Persian fleets, and builing a civilisation around it.

On second thought, a strength bonus would be quite extreme, since it would allow them to compete with much later ships. first strike and a move sound good, especially as one will follow through the ages.

 

[peter450]

You can make a fair historical argument for the trieme, however gameplay wise it would be a disaster, early naval combat is practically non existant on at least half the maps people play, while mid to late game naval can be quite important on continent or island maps, the early naval era is pretty much a non event on anything other than tiny island maps, it would be the UU equivalent of the explorer.