Athens or Sparta?
- Thread starter _Philospher_
- Start date
andrewgprv
Second Class Citizen
Honestly I am sure that if I were born in Sparta I would have been discarded as a baby.
I know Sparta got rid of "unfit" babies. They would leave them on a mountain to die. Isn't their a specific name for it?
I know Sparta got rid of "unfit" babies. They would leave them on a mountain to die. Isn't their a specific name for it?
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
i choose sparta
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
I am amazed that people support Athens becuase it had an almost false democracy over Sparta which had an oligarchy; even though Athens was out to make an empire and exterminated anyone in their way.
And this was ancient times by the way. I don't see how anceint democracy is any better than ancient tyrannies or dictatorships. In fact in the ancient times, democratically elected leaders were bigger arseholes and less capable leaders than those who were born and fashioned into the job.
And this was ancient times by the way. I don't see how anceint democracy is any better than ancient tyrannies or dictatorships. In fact in the ancient times, democratically elected leaders were bigger arseholes and less capable leaders than those who were born and fashioned into the job.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Originally posted by Xen
dont you think these points are kind of voided by the fact that, while Athens may have only had 40% (IIRC, I have seen this number in relation to Athens number of citizens several times) of its population has registernd voters, Sparta truelly was an olgiarchy- and dint even abide be the tenates of personal freedome, and democracy...
besides, considering that at least Athens was occupying the moral high ground, with both democracy, and the first great flowering of free thought, and place whos philosiphers were amoung the, if the very, first to suggest that ALL slavery was wrong- imagine then what might have happend, if that had evnetually become the general veiw from the publics eye as well...
Moral high ground, I suppose includes Imperialism, Backstabbing, Slavery, etc. etc. Other Greek states also supported free thought; Athens actually sentenced people to death for having free thought such as claiming the Earth was round, for saying that there were irrational numbers, for saying that the world was made up of atoms, and so forth. Great free thought. There were people far earlier who suggested slavery was wrong. The ancient Egyptians (from the very early dynasties) never ever took slaves as they thought it was inhumane and morally unacceptable.
The athenian contribution to democracy and republic was far superior then any other made untill them. Take the book The Republic, by Plato, for exemple. There were some concepts that are modern to this day, like 3 independent Powers.
And like I and others have said, the athenian democracy was not even near perfect, but they created the very sophisticated concept that all men are born equal, something that simply cannot be overlooked. Athens was the first place where the ruler responded to the people, where the power of the ruler was given to him by the people.
In Sparta and the rest of the world there was people who were born to rule and people who were born to obey.
And like I and others have said, the athenian democracy was not even near perfect, but they created the very sophisticated concept that all men are born equal, something that simply cannot be overlooked. Athens was the first place where the ruler responded to the people, where the power of the ruler was given to him by the people.
In Sparta and the rest of the world there was people who were born to rule and people who were born to obey.
noi egypian slaves eh? well, I suppose if you want to get on the technicality of war prisoners, you migh tbe right- in effect however it IS slavery, after all, forced servitude is slavery...
ALright, save Socrates- who came up with NONE of your scientific examples of why Athens condemend someone, plase name me ONE exicution that took place becuse of such thoughts, simple answer is, ther are none, the greeks ACCEPTED that the earth was round, and that the natuarl world was made up of Atoms (although there concept of atoms are different from the modern one) irrational numbers too were put to good use, as well as pie and all that.
so dose it just happen that all of your examples led to no one exicution, but rather a treasury trove of historical knowledge?
and other greek states- yes, ones that were under ATHENIAN control- you'll see no such great works of scietific thought in any of Sparta allies, let alone its subject, and never itself during the pre-Alexandrian era, period.
no, its not a flase democracy- its a democracy that fits the definition exactley!
all of its CITIZENS get to vote- NEVER, ANYWHERE, dose it EVER say that every one gets a voice- ONLY citizens
and as for leaders- forgetting dear Pericles- who is had survived the plague, may have been able to lead Atjens to victory with his vision
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
I admit that Athens laid the ground work for democracy. But democracy was no where near perfect. If only a small percentage of people were given the right to vote and you extend citizenship only to them (and that 40% figure you gave was far too high; the 25% sounds more right), then I suppose it's all well and good, and their democracy was sooo great that we can overlook all of their bad deeds.
Your Plato example is pretty vise-versa; it is no secret that he was an absolute admirer of Spartan society.
The world was only proven round in the Ptolemaic Empire, a good two hundred years after the Peloponessian War (and even then it was not widely accepted or noticed). Keep things in the time frame.
Also, I forgot the names but people were put to death for thinking there were irrational numbers, or the world was made up of atoms (even though their thoughts on what atoms were is not the same as what we know today)
There was great philosophic thought in amongst Spartan allies too. Don't be over-dismissive.
Your Plato example is pretty vise-versa; it is no secret that he was an absolute admirer of Spartan society.
The world was only proven round in the Ptolemaic Empire, a good two hundred years after the Peloponessian War (and even then it was not widely accepted or noticed). Keep things in the time frame.
Also, I forgot the names but people were put to death for thinking there were irrational numbers, or the world was made up of atoms (even though their thoughts on what atoms were is not the same as what we know today)
There was great philosophic thought in amongst Spartan allies too. Don't be over-dismissive.
_Philospher_
Balancing the cranium
In my opinion, both Athens and Sparta had their postive and negative sides and both city-states were too proud and arrogant to come to terms . And because of this Greece paid a high price which were war and the eventual conquest of Macedonia over the Greek world.
Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
I admit that Athens laid the ground work for democracy. But democracy was no where near perfect. If only a small percentage of people were given the right to vote and you extend citizenship only to them (and that 40% figure you gave was far too high; the 25% sounds more right), then I suppose it's all well and good, and their democracy was sooo great that we can overlook all of their bad deeds.
Your Plato example is pretty vise-versa; it is no secret that he was an absolute admirer of Spartan society.
The world was only proven round in the Ptolemaic Empire, a good two hundred years after the Peloponessian War (and even then it was not widely accepted or noticed). Keep things in the time frame.
Also, I forgot the names but people were put to death for thinking there were irrational numbers, or the world was made up of atoms (even though their thoughts on what atoms were is not the same as what we know today)
There was great philosophic thought in amongst Spartan allies too. Don't be over-dismissive.
I'm still not sure of that number my self- it may be connected with the causties to Athenian citizenry during the peloponesian war, and not the percentage of people who are its citizens- give me a break, between a real life, and the Byzantine empire, there hasnt been any room for ancient greece for a long time now
though i will mention, that as of the time of the tyrants, citizenship was extended to non-native inhabitents of the city- includiong emancipated slavesas for discoveries- you'll find that ALL mathmatics were made of ample use by the ancient greeks- including irrational numbers, particuraly in Athnes, all this was described in a none to fascinateing lecture by a math teacher (whom, I feel it should be mentioned, has a doctored or two to his name)
and YES, the ideal, and though of democracy IS more then a good enogh boon to make up for anything Athens may have done wrong ten times over!
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
I reckon it was only a matter of time before some other place came up with the ideal of Democracy, inside or outside of Greece. And it's not its invention of the idea that should count - it's how it is implemented IMO and Athens didn't implement it too well (though I'll admit a million times better than Rome)
The 40% figure probably came during or after the 30 Tyrants then.
But _Philosopher_ says it best though IMO...
But I still support Sparta more than Athens for this war.
The 40% figure probably came during or after the 30 Tyrants then.
But _Philosopher_ says it best though IMO...
But I still support Sparta more than Athens for this war.
by tyrants, i mean the pre-democracy tyrants...
although as for democratic ideals, it is Athens who fully refined them into a pure demcracy, with direct participation by citizens
ROme, as we all know was a very weird twist on oligarchy, that somehow ended up in a semi democratic state- although it ended up in that state about the same time as Athens arrived at demcracy (or actualey, a year before it...)
although as for democratic ideals, it is Athens who fully refined them into a pure demcracy, with direct participation by citizens
ROme, as we all know was a very weird twist on oligarchy, that somehow ended up in a semi democratic state- although it ended up in that state about the same time as Athens arrived at demcracy (or actualey, a year before it...)
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
It couldn't have been the pre-democracy tyrants or else the citizenships would have had to have been removed because I remember that no foreign citizens or or people descended from foriegners for a certain number of generations could not claim citizenship; and 40% of the population is too large a percentage when you consider children, women, slaves, foreigners, etc. etc. did not get citizenship.
stratego
Trying to be good.
The Spartans does seem a lot tougher than Athenians. They are the ones to come up with government subsidized schools where they train their soldiers.
The only things that I dislike about the Spartans are that the soldiers were taught to view women only as sexual objects so they won't get too attached. And the fact that they are required to practice homosexuality.
The only things that I dislike about the Spartans are that the soldiers were taught to view women only as sexual objects so they won't get too attached. And the fact that they are required to practice homosexuality.
h4ppy
You sir, pineapple?
Spartans because I like fighting more than I like losing.
this depends- in ancient times, 13 years of age was the standard for gaining citizenship, and it was the tyrant Solon who extendend citizenship to immigrents to the city who were tradesmen, merchants, and other such ocupations of the ancient "middle class"
WickedSmurf
pr0
Sparta.
Ah, didn't they loot the league treasury at Delphi? They didn't
hold the high ground when It came to foreign policy, especially
when dealing with their league allies.
Both states were due for extinction, Athens with it's class wars
eating it's foundations, and Sparta with it's no progress ethos.
The real advances happened in the colonies, like Syrauce.
I'll side with Maceadon.
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