Atlas Shrugged: what do you think?

Atlas Shrugged is:

  • Prophecy

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • More politically correct than not

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • More incorrect than not

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • only good for the lolz.

    Votes: 31 64.6%

  • Total voters
    48
Wouldn't the fastest Objectivist shove the weaker/slower Objectivist onto the grenade?

According to the Objectivist "rational self-interest":

A code of rational self-interest rejects every form of human sacrifice, whether of oneself to others or of others to oneself.

From the larger text I quoted above.

So they wouldn't sacrifice themselves for others, nor would they force others to sacrifice for them. They'd just stand there looking stupid until the grenade went off (dramatization).

-Drachasor
 
People are not inherently good towards others. History has shown that most people are the opposite. Doing what's right is a learned trait.
People are inherently good towards others ("good" is defined within their societal context). History has shown that people are exactly that. People make small sacrifices for each other on a daily basis. By the way, I'm using the word "inherent" to mean "taught to be that way and then they are that way." It looks a little like you're trying to say that people aren't born with "goodness" therefore, people aren't good. People are born with exactly no knowledge of anything so I don't see why you're bothering to say this.
 
People are inherently good towards others ("good" is defined within their societal context). History has shown that people are exactly that. People make small sacrifices for each other on a daily basis. By the way, I'm using the word "inherent" to mean "taught to be that way and then they are that way." It looks a little like you're trying to say that people aren't born with "goodness" therefore, people aren't good. People are born with exactly no knowledge of anything so I don't see why you're bothering to say this.

Have you ever been around a group of 2-years olds that haven't yet been taught to share and play nice? People tend to be selfish and cruel to each other until they learn that it's better to be generous and kind.
 
People are born with some instincts for selfishness and some instincts for altruism. There is certainly evolutionary reasons for both. Saying we have none of either is just focusing on the worse/best aspects of humanity.
 
According to the Objectivist "rational self-interest":



From the larger text I quoted above.

So they wouldn't sacrifice themselves for others, nor would they force others to sacrifice for them. They'd just stand there looking stupid until the grenade went off (dramatization).

-Drachasor

By that logic, they wouldn't murder people for their own rational self-interest either. You can't have it both ways. ;)
 
OK, just a few words concerning the Marx debate. Unfortunately I don't have much time available, so I had to post quote a few links. Also don't expect further posts from me in this thread, if somebody still wants to discuss Marx, take it to my Marx-thread or send me a PM.
So only Philosophy majors can understand Marx? Not very likely. I think anyone can understand philosphy by themseves, it is just a matter of reading enough.

Everybody can understand Marx. Everybody can understand philosophy, too. But some requirements are needed.

Um, no. I don't have to agree with a certain philosophy to admire it. I certainly don't agree on most things with Wittgenstein or Bertrand Russel, but I can admire their insights.
Like what?

Marx OTOH never added anything to my understanding of the world. Despite the verbose manner in which it is written, The Capital is simplistic, overly professoral, and generally just a poor work. You can literally read through 10 straight pages without learning anything new. Marx is like one of those unbearable romantic writers who take 1,000 pages to say what could have been said in 10.

Doesn't seem to me that you read it that closely, then.


Karl Popper plainly stated that marxism is a pseudoscience and a dogma. Scholars have made sweeping remarks about Marx before.
Ah, another Mont Pelerinite (by the way founded by men who really said what "a bunch of people", more specifically a bunch with fat purses, really wanted to hear), his highness Popper.
Actually Popper was a decent thinker, and especially his criticism of Plato is quite good, but he wasn't infallable. There are plenty of criticism of Popper, and since name-dropping seems to be in order, let me just mention Kuhn, Feyerabend (recommended also for entertainment value) and Taylor. Also have a look at this; a bit too harsh, but with some very good points:
The Poverty of Popperism

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it." (Cicero, De Divinatione.)

If it were not so serious, it would be comical. In the most pompous manner, the advocates of the most unscientific theory imaginable immediately elbowed aside all other trends and loudly proclaimed themselves to be the philosophy of science. It was the intellectual equivalent of gate-crashing a party. And, as sometimes happens, the people at the party may be too polite, or too afraid of a bunch of rowdies, to shut the door, so they just keep quiet and let them in. Of course, it always helps if someone on the inside calls out: "Oh, it’s O. K., they’re friends of mine!"

In the development of quantum mechanics, an important role was played by Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg. They worked together, and developed the so-called Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, which we have already commented on. There was, however, a difference in their approach. Whereas Bohr was basically a pragmatic scientist, Heisenberg was always inclined to a more philosophical approach, and, for a time, accepted the theories of logical positivism. The whole Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics is permeated with the spirit of subjective idealism as a result.

It was bad enough that this trend should claim to speak for "modern science" in the field of philosophy. But that was not enough for them. They had to teach the scientists their business as well. If they were really the philosophy of science, then all scientists must heed them! They had worked out a "scientific method" which was foolproof. Now everyone must accept it, on pain of being denounced as unscientific. And in case anyone thought they were joking, just look at the job they did on psycho-analysis!

There was only one slight problem in all this. The standards of so-called logicality set by these ladies and gentlemen have nothing whatever to do with the actual practice of science itself. Most practical scientists just shrug their shoulders, and get on with their work as if these people were not there, just like those who move into the kitchen to get away from those noisy party-crashers; which does not prevent them from continuing to make an awful lot of noise.

One of the noisiest was Sir Karl Popper, who died recently. Like Napoleon, who literally crowned himself Emperor, Popper proclaimed himself the philosopher of science, and, without waiting for the outcome of a referendum on the subject, proceeded to hold court on a world scale. In between ferocious polemics against Marx (whom he did not understand), he wrote a great deal on the method of science (which he interpreted in a completely one-sided way). It is a measure of the vacuum in modern philosophy that this kind of nonsense was taken seriously for so long.

Induction Versus Deduction?

In 1934, Popper, then living in Vienna, published his book The Logic of Scientific Discovery. In this work, Popper completely rejects the method of induction, insisting that all conclusions must be drawn from logical deduction. Popper specifically rules out the method of induction, based on observation. To qualify for Popper’s certificate of "science-worthiness," a theory must be internally consistent, must not be a tautology, and must make predictions that can be tested. Moreover, he maintained that the results of a test cannot verify a theory, only falsify it.

All of this sounds very nice, and is in complete accord with the method of formal logic. But it has got very little to do with the actual practice of science. One physicist commented wryly that Popper’s ideas were strategically sound but tactically indefensible, in other words, fine in (formal logical) theory, but, like an umbrella full of holes—useless precisely for the purpose for which it was intended.

Induction (from the Latin inducere, to lead in) is another method of reasoning. It was already known to Aristotle, but achieved wide acceptance during the Renaissance, when it was championed by Bacon and Galileo. As a form of reasoning, induction proceeds from single facts to general propositions. Men and women have always made such generalisations on the basis of their experience, often reaching correct conclusions, sometimes not.

Let us consider an example of inductive reasoning. A child burns its hand on a flame, and draws the conclusion, on the basis of experience that it is not a good idea to get too close to fire. "Fire (in general) burns." That is an inductive reasoning—from the particular to the general. In this case, the conclusion is perfectly valid and rather useful. But consider another example. A turkey is visited every morning by a nice old lady with a bag of corn in her hand. The turkey, by the method of inductive reasoning, might very well conclude that the kind lady means food. This conclusion is drawn from the same experience repeated many times—364 times, to be exact. Then, one morning, the farmer’s wife appears with a butcher’s knife in her hand. Here the turkey’s inductive logic proves to be somewhat defective, and does not really help it to clarify its existential dilemma!

Scientific induction, like its popular equivalent, also consists of drawing conclusions from a whole class based on the number of elements of that class. But here the grounds for conclusion are provided by the discovery of essential connections between the elements studied, which show that the given feature must be possessed by the whole class. The task of discovering these necessary connections involves detailed observation. Thus, induction signifies experimental study of things, in such a way that we pass from single facts to generalisations.

The method of deduction is, on the face of it, the exact opposite of induction. Deduction consists of proving or inferring a conclusion from one or more premises by the laws of logic. The deductive method does not set out from particular experiences, but from so-called axioms, which are assumed to be correct from the start. This is the traditional method of mathematics, for example classical geometry, based on the axioms of Euclid, which were for centuries supposed to represent absolute truths, valid for all time, under all circumstances. Deductive reasoning therefore proceeds from the general (law) to the particular.

The struggle between induction and deduction goes back to the 17th century, to the different approaches adopted by two great scientific thinkers—Bacon and Descartes. The Englishman Bacon was the father of empiricism, and the method of inductive reasoning, which attempts to derive theories from observed facts alone. In Bacon’s case, the obsession with observation proved fatal; he died of bronchitis as a result of an early experiment in refrigeration, involving stuffing a chicken with snow.

Descartes approached science from a diametrically opposite standpoint. Taking Euclid’s geometry as his model, he attempted to develop consistent and coherent theorems derived from pure reason, without recourse to the unreliable evidence of the senses. His method was that of rationalism, which became the main tradition in France. Bacon’s empiricism triumphed on the other side of the Channel. Both men, in different ways, advanced the cause of science, and both made important discoveries.

However, neither deduction nor induction on their own are capable of grasping the whole picture. The problem with Bacon’s method is that the facts do not select themselves. You need an initial theory (a hypothesis) even to decide what observations to make in the first place. Moreover, the results of induction always have a more or less provisional character. For example, a person who had observed a hundred swans might draw the conclusion that all swans were white. This is an inductive conclusion. But it would be wrong, because some swans are black. Engels makes the point that "The empiricism of observation alone can never adequately prove necessity." (The Dialectics of Nature, p. 304.)

We therefore did not have to wait for Sir Karl to point out the limitations of inductive logic. However, to deny induction altogether is to jump from the frying pan into the fire. Induction plays a necessary role in science, as well as in everyday life. Is it really necessary for somebody to drink all the water in the sea before being prepared to admit that sea water is salty? Popper’s attempt to eliminate induction from science shows a lamentable ignorance both of the true relationship between deduction and induction, and of how science works in real life.

Until the end of the 19th century, the deductive method was used almost exclusively in mathematics. Not until the 20th century were attempts made to apply it to fields such as physics, biology, linguistics, sociology, etc. Despite all the impressive claims made on its behalf, experience shows that the axiomatic-deductive method is quite limited in what it can achieve. The controversy between induction and deduction is pointless, since, in practice, induction always exists together with deduction. Neither is self-sufficient as a method, but, in dialectical materialism, they are combined as different aspects of the process of cognizing reality, which are inseparably connected, and determine each other.

The Economist article already mentioned goes on to criticise Popper’s rejection of the inductive method:

"A number of philosophers also question Popper’s rejection of induction. The use of induction, they say, is logically unsatisfactory but inescapable. Deductions about the real world are only as good as the assumptions about the real world on which they are based. These assumptions rest on induction, as does the scientist’s interpretation of the experimental results that test the conclusions drawn from them. Both in forming a hypothesis and in interpreting tests of it, a scientist makes the basic assumption that nature will behave in other places and at other times as it behaves here and now. That is an inductive assumption." And it continues:

"Dr. Jennifer Trusted is one British philosopher who puts induction in perspective. Induction, she says, is essential but not sufficient for knowledge of the real world. The same could be said for deduction."

This last observation is absolutely correct, and goes to the heart of the matter. Neither induction nor deduction, taken on its own, is sufficient. It is necessary to combine them, which is just what dialectics does. Deduction is also a conclusion, and therefore induction is also a kind of deduction. On the other hand, all deductions are, in the last analysis, derived from material reality. This is true even of axioms, which are supposed to be the products of "pure theory." For example, Euclid’s axiom that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points is clearly the result of long experience and observation. Engels explains the one-sidedness of both induction and deduction, when taken in isolation, and also explains the dialectical relation between them:

"Induction and deduction belong together as necessarily as synthesis and analysis. Instead of one-sidedly lauding one to the skies at the expense of the other, we should seek to apply each of them in its place, and that can only be done by bearing in mind that they belong together, that they supplement each other." (The Dialectics of Nature, p. 302.)

What Can we Predict?

Popper’s insistence that all conclusions must be drawn by deduction, then, is at variance with the reality of scientific practice. Indeed, those areas of science—like certain branches of particle physics and cosmology—which have developed an excessive dependence on the method of deduction and abstract reasoning, are getting into a deeper and deeper mess. Nor is the business of the testing of a new hypothesis as straightforward as Popper makes out. There are many theories which are in daily use, despite the fact that they are known to be quite inadequate, for the simple reason that they are the best available; an example is Hooke’s law, used by engineers to check the relationship between stresses and strains in a material.

In a very perceptive article (unfortunately unsigned) published in the Science section of The Economist in December 1981, Popper’s views on science are exposed to a searching analysis, with quite devastating results:

"There are a lot of experiments where you cannot restrict the results to yes-or-no answers or where it is extremely hard to interpret what the answers are, because of the so-called signal-to-noise ratio. Suppose you repeat an experiment six times and get the result you predicted only twice. Does that prove the prediction was wrong? Or that four times out of six you failed to get the experiment right? In biology, such results are common: the vagaries of nature are notorious.

"While scientists strive for unambiguous answers, often they have to settle for less. And even if you do get results that unambiguously show the prediction of a theory is wrong, it is still not always clear what you have falsified. Strictly speaking, testing an isolated hypothesis is impossible. Consciously or unconsciously, the scientist assumes much else from the pyramid of knowledge besides the hypothesis tested." (The Economist, December 26th 1981, p. 101.)

The emphasis on prediction as a necessary precondition of the scientific method has been greatly exaggerated, and does not conform in the slightest to the reality of science. An astronomer can sometimes predict the position of a star many millions of years hence. But Darwin could not predict what species would evolve in a million years’ time. Geologists cannot predict precisely the time and place of an earthquake. And with meteorologists, the situation is still more hopeless. Even with all the armoury of modern computers and satellite technology behind them, they can only predict the weather with any degree of accuracy for a maximum of three days. Incidentally, even astronomy is not such an exact science as used to be thought. There are plenty of unpredictable phenomena in cosmology, yet no-one in their right mind would deny that astronomy is a science because it is unable to predict precisely where the next star will be born.

The reality of science certainly does involve making predictions to test out theories, although the nature of the prediction and the type of experimental "test" will vary enormously from laboratory test tubes to vast astronomical distances. Just because some predictions are not, and cannot be made, does not rule out the idea as a scientific method. There are sciences and sciences, and there are predictions and predictions. Predictions involving simple linear systems can be made with a high degree of certainty. But complex systems are difficult, or impossible to predict with any degree of accuracy.

For all the satellites and computers, it is impossible to predict the weather accurately more than three days in advance. Is meteorology a science, or not? Earthquakes cannot be predicted, and there are no neat laboratory experiments to prove the theories of geology. Is the latter a science, or is it not? And what about the predictions of a doctor? Even the best doctors make mistaken diagnoses, sometimes with fatal results. Is medicine a science? Clearly, it is, but not a precise science like some branches of physics.

When we reach a field like psychology, things get even more complicated. Psychology, as a science, is still in its infancy. One cannot yet speak of a fully worked-out body of ideas which is generally accepted in this most complex field, involving the basic driving-forces of human behaviour. And when we come to sociology, which, after all, deals with the complex behaviour of masses, the huge amount of variables makes the task of prediction doubly difficult. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no. For in human society also there are certain patterns of behaviour, certain processes, which can be identified and explained. General conclusions can be drawn, and, yes, predictions made, which can be tested in practice. Only don’t expect the same precise degree of accuracy in such predictions as you would hope to find in a carefully-conducted laboratory experiment!

At best, it is possible to predict the most general tendencies in society, and even these predictions must be constantly revised, added to and modified in the light of experience. In the end, they may be falsified by events, for a number of reasons, just as a even the best doctor’s diagnosis may turn out to be wrong. Does the doctor then draw the conclusion that diagnosis in general is an unscientific occupation, a waste of time? Or does he go back and try to discover the source of his error, in order to learn from it? The real question that should be asked is: Do we believe that it is possible to obtain a rational understanding of the laws that govern social evolution? If the answer is no, then all further discussion is pointless. If human history is seen as an essentially meaningless string of accidents, then there is no point in trying to understand it. But if science has succeeded in discovering the laws which governed the development of humankind in the remote past, based on the extremely scanty evidence of a few precious fossils, then it is not at all obvious why it should be impossible to uncover the laws which determined the evolution of our species for the last 10,000 years. Yet this is declared out of bounds by Professor Popper. All who attempt to do this will be immediately be condemned for the heinous crime of historicism.

Thus, we are entitled to ask about the far-flung galaxies, and the smallest particles of matter, but if we attempt to arrive at a rational understanding of society, of history—that is to say of ourselves, who we are and where we came from—that is not allowed. The arbitrary nature of this prohibition is so glaring that one cannot avoid asking what the reason for it is. Is it really to do with science? Or might it have more to do with certain vested interests which do not want people to ask too many questions about the past and present of the type of society in which we live, for fear that they might draw all the wrong conclusions about the type of society we would like to live in in the future.

Nothing to Do with Science

Popper’s attempt to elevate the rules of deduction and formal logic above all else is the 20th century equivalent to the dictatorship of the Church’s one-sided and rigid caricature of Aristotle in the Middle Ages. Once again we have the attempt to force science into the straitjacket of a rigid and preconceived idealist schema, which lays claim to the status of an absolute truth to which everyone must bend the knee. Unfortunately, unruly, rebellious, contradictory nature will not submit meekly to such treatment. However self-consistent logic may be, it provides no ready-made answers about the world. Indeed, as we have seen, logic and mathematics in the 20th century has found it impossible to deal with contradictions even in its own house, as in the following sentences: "The next sentence is false. The previous sentence is true." Professional logicians cannot even agree among themselves whether this, and other "anomalies" have been resolved. Yet this did not prevent the likes of Sir Karl Popper from laying down the law for the whole domain of human thought.

The problem is that science, lives in the physical world, that crude world of contradictory, non-linear material reality. It is simply not good enough for the philosophy of science. Karl Popper is not a bit bothered about the discrepancy. If science does not match up to the stern criteria of the verification principle, so much the worse for science! Let us hear what the great man himself has to say on the subject:

"Science is not a system of certain, or well-established, statements; nor is it a system which steadily advances towards a state of finality. Our science is not knowledge (episteme): it can never claim to have attained truth, or even a substitute for it, such as probability.

"Yet science has more than mere biological survival value. It is not only a useful instrument. Although it can attain neither truth nor probability, the striving for knowledge and the search for truth are still the strongest motives of scientific discovery.

"We do not know: we can only guess. And our guesses are guided by the unscientific, the metaphysical (though biologically explicable) faith in laws, in regularities which we can uncover—discover. Like Bacon, we might describe our own contemporary science—’the method of reasoning which men now ordinarily apply to nature’—as consisting of ‘anticipations, rash and premature,’ and of ‘prejudices.’" (Quoted in Ferris, pp. 797-8, our emphasis.)

These few observations, delivered in a typically modest style quite in the tradition of Herr Dühring, were made in a lecture delivered to the Aristotelian society in Oxford in 1936. The lecturer later recalled with some irritation that "the audience took this for a joke, or a paradox, and they laughed and clapped." Evidently, they did not know their Karl Popper! There was no joke intended. He meant every word. For Popper and his disciples, the purpose of science is not to discover truths about the world, but merely a formal logical exercise, like chess or a crossword puzzle.

What is one to say about all this? At the end of the 20th century, when the discoveries of science have attained unheard-of peaks, we are informed that science cannot really know anything at all. On this issue, we completely concur with the following assessment:

"A distinction should be made between theories and facts. Scientists assume theories; they know facts to be true, within acceptable limits of confidence. As time advances, they replace one theory with another, arguably a better one. What should be beyond argument is that there is an accretion of known facts.

"On the whole, science is ‘true.’ To deny that man knows more about the workings of nature now than he did in the Middle Ages is perverse. Undoubtedly, some scientific discoveries are false and scientists are often a bit irrational in how they set about finding things out. But the alternative to accepting that there is a strong measure of truth in science is to go back to blaming a witch when the cow is sick." (The Economist, ibid., p. 103.)

The final refutation of Popperism and logical positivism in general is that, for all its bragging claims, it has nothing to do with the realities of science. This is shown by the attitudes of scientists, including, as we have seen, of those who could be expected to be sympathetic to it. This is what Niels Bohr had to say, after a conference of scientists and logical positivists held in Copenhagen about the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics:

"‘For my part, I can readily agree with the positivists about the things they want, but not about the things they reject. All the positivists are trying to do is to provide the procedures of modern science with a philosophical basis, or, if you like, a justification. They point out that the notions of the earlier philosophies lack the precision of scientific concepts, and they think that many of the questions posed and discussed by conventional philosophers have no meaning at all, that they are pseudo problems and, as such, best ignored. Positivist insistence on conceptual clarity is, of course, something I fully endorse, but their prohibition of any discussion of the wider issues, simply because we lack clear-cut enough concepts in this realm, does not seem very useful to me—this same ban would prevent our understanding of quantum theory." (Quoted in T. Ferris, op. cit., p. 822, our emphasis.)

The famous physicist Wolfgang Pauli observed that the logical positivists merely used the term metaphysics as a kind of swearword, or at best, as an euphemism for unscientific thought. "I should consider it utterly absurd—and Niels (Bohr), for one, would agree—were I to close my mind to the problems and ideas of earlier philosophers simply because they cannot be expressed in a more precise language. True, I often have great difficulty in grasping what these ideas are meant to convey, but when that happens, I always try to translate them into modern terminology and to discover whether they throw up fresh answers." (Quoted in T. Ferris, p. 824.)

Finally, let us call as a key witness for the prosecution a man who might be expected to support the logical positivist line enthusiastically—Werner Heisenberg. In fact, he generally followed this line in the beginning, denying the independence of physical reality from the act of observation, insisting on the "indeterminateness" of processes at the sub-atomic level, and so on. However, as a scientist, involved in serious research, Heisenberg had to come to terms with the objective reality of the physical world. In the end, the absurd claims of the self-appointed philosophers of science were too much even for him.

"The positivists," he wrote, "have a simple solution: the world must be divided into that which we can say clearly and the rest, which we had better pass over in silence. But can anyone conceive of a more pointless philosophy, seeing that what we can say clearly amounts to next to nothing? If we omitted all that is unclear, we would probably be left completely uninteresting and trivial tautologies." (Ibid., p. 826.)

After decades of wandering in this arid desert, the most forward-looking scientists have finally turned their backs on a philosophy which taught them absolutely nothing either about the way nature works or how to understand it. The advent of the theories of chaos and complexity marks a decisive break with the narrow limitedness of the philosophy of science, and an approximation to a dialectical view of nature. The attitude of the new generation of scientists to the existing schools of thought is summed up in the following observations by the biologist Stuart Kaufmann on why he decided not to study philosophy:

"It wasn’t that I didn’t love philosophy. It’s that I distrusted a certain facileness in it. Contemporary philosophers, or at least those of the 1950s and 1960s, took themselves to be examining concepts and the implications of concepts—not the facts of the world. So you could find out if your arguments were cogent, felicitous, coherent, and so on. But you couldn’t find out if you were right." (M. Waldrop, Complexity, p. 105.)

There is an English proverb: "Little things please little minds." Those who place impossible demands upon science and then, when their demands are not met, draw the conclusion that science is not really "true" say nothing at all about science, but quite a lot about a trivial method which seeks simple answers to complex questions and complains when they are not forthcoming. The old claims to represent the philosophy of science are as dead as a doornail. To paraphrase what Marx once said about Matthew Arnold, the philosophy of science is too good for this world.
link: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~socappeal/philosophy/chapter6.html
It might also be mentioned that Popper seems to have had quite a high opinion of Marx, except for his historicism.
 
In fact, if you want a guy known for sweeping remarks, how about Marx? Have you ever read anything by him? He was the king of sweeping remarks, as anyone who has ever laid eyes on one of his works should know.
Judging from both the paragraph above and a collection of your other statements, it is you rather than Marx that should wear that crown...

Yeah, I doubt your article will teach me more about Marx than Marx did. Why don't you read Marx to form an impression from him?
The secret is: most of the time you have to do both. Try for instance an unguided trip through some of the works of for instance Plato, Kant, Hegel, or since you mentioned him Wittgenstein. Then compare it with bringing along an experienced guide. I think you will notice the difference.
There is a reason why people usually concentrate on a few thinkers. Reading Marx to form an impression, with a preconceived notion (as we all inevitably will have, but a strong bias for or against hurt the most), without contextualizing it is pretty much a recipe for disaster.


Karl Marx would also fail your test. BTW, what "scholarly consensus" are you talking about?
Among real philosophers, that is people who are educated in philosophy and live from it. I am afraid their words should weigh heavier than ours in certain matters.

The people I studied with all agreed that Marx is irrelavant as a philosopher and as an economist, even if they also agreed it is interesting to study him given his vast influence.
Oh, it must be decided then.:crazyeye:

Jesus, only "scholars" can have an opinion of things? Are you a scholar? Give me a break, dude. I am not ******** and I will have an opinion on anything I read.
That is not the point at all. Everybody can have opinions. I for instance can have an opinion on quantum physics. What I can't have though, because of my lack of education and familiarity with it, is insight.
Of course, an opinion can be more or less qualified. Of course, sometimes amateurs can indeed successfully challenge and correct established academic ideas, since they will be less prone to certain biases. But that is more an exception than a rule.

I specifically mentioned Russel and Wittgenstein because they were known socialists... Any beef I have with Marx for purely ideological reasons I'd have to extend to them.
So exactly which works of those two mentioned did you read that explicitely mentioned socialist ideas?

True, both Smith and Ricardo believed in the Labour Theory, and they were wrong. But truth be told, they were 18th Century writers, while Marx wrote The Capital in the second half of the 19th Century, when the LTV was already under severe questioning. Marx even tried to deal with those questioning, in some of his correspondence. Just 4 years after Marx wrote his most famous work, Carl Menger formalised what would be known as Marginalist Theory or Subjective Theory, which is accepted until this very day. But Marx could never admit that the LTV was wrong, for without it his whole Exploitation Theory was wrong, and thus marxism as a whole is wrong.
Another sweeping statement. :goodjob:
In the real world LTV is still discussed, and while nobody is unaware of its need to be refined, it is premature, to put it mildly, to issue any death certificate.
As for STV, it is not above criticism either, here for instance is one:
Most arguements in favor of market populism use some variation of the Subjective Theory of Value. Supposidly prices are determined by the marginal utility to the consumer; prices are determined by "what people want." Corporations attempt to maximize profit by providing things that people desire and (theoretically) are therefore responsive to public needs. This idea ignores the large economic inequalities inherent in capitalism. Corporations attempt to maximize profits by following the money, they therefore tend to be more responsive towards those with the most money. There's no point in trying to sell things to people who have no money; which is why there aren't any marketing campaigns geared towards the homeless. Companies tend to gear their production towards those with more money, and in a society where the richest 1% of the population has more wealth than the bottom 90% this means that individuals on the top will have much more influence than those on the bottom. If capitalism means "one dollar, one vote" as many capitalists claim then it will be those with the most money who will rule. Corporations and states are also major consumers and these are authoritarian organizations controlled by a tiny elite - giving that elite even more control over the economy.

In addition, the subjective theory of value is based on circular reasoning. In order to make the evaluations on how best to maximize their utility each consumer must know the prices of goods and also what their income will be. But this data is dependant on the evaluation made by each consumer. It is thus circular - decisions of the consumers depend on the prices, prices depend on the decisions of the consumers.
link:http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/Market_Populism.html
See also Maurice Dobb for ideological critique (sorry, I have no links for this one , but I think one of his works is simply called"Theories of Value and Distribution").
I am sorry to say it, but this sort of presentation of what is to a certain extent an ideological controversy, strikes me as intellectual dishonesty.

Agreed, for sure. My main problem with Marx is not even the LTV, but rather his Theory of History.
Do you have any better?

Anyway, as I said I never read Rand so I can't make an accurate comment, but if her critics in this thread are correct than it seems that she made some of Marx's mistakes, since it looks like Objectivism, much like marxist communism, is a closed system, which claims to represent an universal truth that can explain everything and cure all that is wrong and invalidate all criticism by trying to interpret what the subjective motivation of the critic must be.

I am not really a Marxist, so I wouldn't know for sure, but as far I can see few of those who claim to be, take that approach. Not that that would be any different than claiming that the "free market" always is the "best", to name but one.
And while the concepts of class and ideology is something that a lot of people would like to pretend do not exist, I am afraid they will have their work cut out convincing the rest of us...
And that should be enough about hero Karl, feel free to go back to zero Ayn.
 
By that logic, they wouldn't murder people for their own rational self-interest either. You can't have it both ways. ;)

As I said in the post where I was quoting from Objectivist sources, I had gotten their "rational self-interest" wrong. It's a lot less coherent than rational self-interest of economics, imho.

-Drachasor
 
To understand why Objectivism and Rand's philosophy falls flat you have to understand her background.

She felt she didn't find enough attention in Soviet Russia and arrived to US which she adored along with these ideas of hers about what she thought freedom was all about. And then she started creating this fantasy world and went idealistically ballistic. And sure some people might even take his ideas seriously, others like me find it just laughing stock.

Here's what I wrote about her earlier in other thread:
C~G said:
She could be effectively described this way:
"I came from poor Russia which I hated to free US and now I noticed how much power men have and I love them for it, sex is nice and I oppose the idea that somebody comes to tell me what to do with my day-to-day life which is everything that I got in my little head and even though everything else does exist, it doesn't matter to me. Oh, I forgot that I dream of being a heroine and objectivist while I'm really just existentialist lost in the realm of my own mind."
Have forgotten to add "simple and naive idealistc and egoistic mind" to the end.

I have only glanced over or browsed through the books, haven't really read them since I don't find the cornerstones of the story being anything to be proud of. Rather just the opposite.

And actually Marx was pretty good philosopher, aside from maybe some economic misunderstandings...
 
I'm only up to chapter five but I think that I can see where Rand is going with it. The heroes of the story are Dagny Taggert and Henry Reardon. I think some of the modern Objectivist have completely miss-interpreted their motivations. These characters are not motivated by greed and self-interest. they are primarily driven by their vision for the future of their respective companies. They are working for a purpose greater than their own petty self-interest. It is actually the antagonist of the story who are the selfish people. The character's surrounding the heroes perceive them as being cold and impersonal. Dagny defies that stereotype when she tries to get her competitor to fight a dirty play made by her brother. She wants to compete in business honestly and honorably. All this time since the writting of Atlas Shrugged greedy people have used Objectivism to rationalize their ill gotten gains. I don't think that's what Ayn Rand had in mind at all.
 
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