Attached GG's = pwn, but protecting them?

[TheMeInTeam]

Just like the title says. I was screwing around today, just to see what would happen. I picked gaul, loaded up a pangaea, and literally teched up all worker techs but fishing and iron working. I then proceeded to turn the slider off and pump gaulic warriors/axes the rest of the game. It was a standard map, so this failed me as I ran out of money at about 30% pop .

What I wanted to test out though, was if using attached GG's strategically could overpower the AI with much fewer losses. The answer is yes, potentially.

I was attacking axes and/or CG archers in a 40% culture D city without siege at over 90% easily. How? CR 3 Combat 3 leadership shock cover! I eventually lost this and every other unit I had to strike ^_^, and got pwnzored by a very angry cyrus after that.

That guy was a super unit. It's scary to think what he'd be like vs cities with no culture D. He'd probably have been able to attack longbows if I had siege, and at high odds! I was trying to get him march (can get it after C3), after which he and 2 other CR III C2 swords would be the bulk of my city attack force. This worked too well, and I wound up with 30+ swords in the early AD's because I'd maybe lose 1-2 swords attacking a 40% city with 5 defenders, and they were new recruits .

There's a problem though. How do I protect a unit like this? It will likely come up as a top defender, although the first battle or two it'll probably win of course (what beats a c3 shock cover sword in the early times? An axe, if promoted. But that would probably draw one of my own axes instead). Do you just bring lots of troops with good mix to cover him?

I want to try out the leadership/tactics/flank II C2 HA soon . These things seem great in early wars. Potentially stronger than settling?

As a secondary question, the AI has an algorithm for war success (basically, it's much more favorable if you badly damage it without losing units). What kind of impact would 2-3 attached GG's have in a war like this? It seems like it could be huge...

 

[obsolete]

The fact that your general is put IN THE FRONT of the lines during defence, is one of the biggest flawed game mechanics since WarLords.

I found out the hard way the FIRST time I experimented with generals. NEVER AGAIN!

I have'nt attached a leader since, and never will unless there is a significant change.

 

[gettingfat]

The only surefire way a warlord is "protected" is to attach the GG to a weak 2-movement unit with exp > 7 and DON'T upgrade it (Scout is the only exception if you have a medic I scout which you can promote it to explorer later). This way you can get a medic III March superhealer and because it's too weak, it'll be the last to fight. This also opens up the West Point later.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The only surefire way a warlord is "protected" is to attach the GG to a weak 2-movement unit with exp > 7 and DON'T upgrade it (Scout is the only exception if you have a medic I scout which you can promote it to explorer later). This way you can get a medic III March superhealer and because it's too weak, it'll be the last to fight. This also opens up the West Point later.

Yes I'm aware of the super healer, but I want some offensive generals . 2 units or so that, when you're parked outside a city with a SoD protecting it, you can basically just use them and pick off everything in the city if you want (though usually you just use them as part of the attack).

In the game I was talking about here, I had them heavy on CR promos and they were swords, in other words, super city raiders. Maybe it's somewhat age-specific. There is nothing in the classical ages that defeats a C3 sword except another C3 sword (or a prat), or an axe. However, if an axe attacks a stack with this unit in it, any old C2 axe of your own will defend instead!

I'd imagine this is particularly effective with mounted troops. Generally, mounted troops have the highest base strength in their age right up until infantry show up. HOWEVER, they have no defensive bonuses whatsoever. What this means is that no counter unit will trigger your mounted unit on defense, but on O it's a powerhouse (mounted GG would probably have leadership, tactics, flank II, combat, and some counter promos. A horse archer with promos like this would have over a 90% survival rate against EVERYTHING in the classical age with a sound chance of winning outright...!)

I wanted a tactics CR III guerilla III gualic warrior, and was well on my way, before I went on strike.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Mounted units are particularly bad GG in my opinion. They will get selected as the best defender for all kinds of odd reasons. On open terrain they probably are your best defender a lot due to high strength and counter units - and flanking won't help you when you are attacked.

Any single unit won't do as much for you as getting +2 xp on EVERY unit from your HE city. That turns that unit into level 3 - would you rather have 20 CR2 swords or 20 CR1 swords and 1 CR3+Combat3 sword? I'd rather have the 20 better units. If some of them die no big deal - but because they all start better and survive better, pretty soon you will have 10 CR3+Combat 3 swords.

Its pretty hard to protect a GG from defending unless they are medics. Once you finish the CR/flanking promotions you are pretty much limited to promotions that improve combat on attack and defense equally - and that raises their probability of being the defender.

One thing to maybe try is making them a specialist defender. Go for the combat promotions and march+tactics. Add drill and terrain defense bonuses.

 

[Harbourboy]

I think is tough and have never been able to pull it off. The only non-healing great general that I have ever managed to use effectively is a super defensive one with all the CG and First Strike promos but that is only useful in certain specific situations (such as being the brick wall to holding back counterattacks on your newly captured cities).

 

[gettingfat]

Mounted units are selected only when they have high base strength. That's why horse archer > axe, knight > mace and cav > rifle a lot of times. That's why I say don't upgrade the puny chariot warlord. You need your surgeon to use scapel instead of sword.

Medic III/morale/combat I cat is another choice for superhealer. Because seige weapon is picked last as a defender it also works OK.

Since the OP wants a CR3/guerilla3 sword, then the best way is to throw in a couple of counter units there. Shock/cover axes and combat spears will be chosen first. Also don't give all swords the CR-line promotions. You need some combat swords. With them they will be selected over your super city raider warlord as the stack defender because of the higher strength.

 

[SenhorDaGuerra]

attaching GG's... bit of a waste if you ask me. unless u want a medic III unit, and then u dont really need those.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Another problem with attaching GG's (except for finalizing a conquest and medic units) is that the extra combat power is just not worth the cost of sacrificing a permanent +2XP or +50% unit production. Sure, a CR3C3S rocks, but at 90% combat you'll lose it in 10 fights even if it doesn't defend, and I think in general you're better off with 5 or 10 'normal' CR2 or CR3 units, sure they'll die but they are very replaceable and yhey will hurt the defender in dying...

I'd much rather give my whole army an extra promotion than one unit 4 extra promotions.

 

[vicawoo]

Flanking generals are too risky. With flanking 2 tactics, you have +60% withdrawal, but you can still lose and die.

 

[Refar]

No risk, no fun. You will loose and die an high odds sometimes.
Can be still worth it.

And: It's up to 90% withdrawal chance - (30% FlankingII + 30% Tactics + 30% Cavalry innate). 80% on Tactics + Guerilla III. And thats only the chance to withdraw. Assuming a good unit, you will have high odds of winning in the first place, while those withdrawal chance only serve as back-up.

 

[Joxer]

I dont like using the GG to give 20 units +2xp. I like to settle him and give every unit produced +2xp till the end of time. With barracks, you get the CR2 anyway. Aggressive leaders, even better. Pyramids, running Rep, oh the sweet goodness.

I will make a medic chariot if I miss out on the Pyramids then settle, or settle every GG if I win the wonder race. On average I can get 2-3 GG by gunpowder. Barracks + Wespoint + 2GG = Drill III rifles as fresh recruits. Or if your protective, Drill IV out the gate.

But as my caveat, I dont play above Prince. (Im not royalty anyway.)

 

[Artichoker]

It's true that GG-attached units die, just like ordinary units, and when they do so, it destroys your investment of that GG (at least for that unit).

My only answer to that is that there's a benefit you gain to outweigh the risk, and vise-versa. Attaching the GG to the unit creates a stronger unit, which can be useful at the appropriate time.

With a limited supply of GG's, I would think twice before attaching the GG to the unit. First ask, what purpose is that unit serving? Some common answers to that question are:

1) to become a level-6 unit for unlocking West Point

2) to become a medic-3 unit

3) to be a strong offensive unit

Often, it's possible to combine functions using several of the above 3. For instance, the warlord unit can have just enough XP to gain Medic 3. But maybe he doesn't need to use all 20 of the XP from the GG. Perhaps, the remaining XP can be used on a different unit to make it a level-6 unit.

The remaining XP can serve as the level-6 unit for West Point. Once West Point has been built, the safety of that unit is no longer that important, and he can act as an offensive unit with lots of promotions.

In this case, your GG would have created 2 special units: 1) a Medic 3 leader unit who's not designed for fighting and 2) an ordinary 6th level unit who's designed for fighting and can be risked in battle.


How does this option work out in practice? By splitting the 20 XP between two units, you would want the non-leader unit to have enough XP for 6th level, after gaining his 10 XP share. This means that for non-Charismatic leaders, you would need an offensive unit with 16 XP...very possible if you have been doing some fighting. The extra 10 XP from the GG gives that unit 1 partial promotion, plus 1 entire promotion.

For the medic unit, you don't need as much XP. Let's say you had 7 XP to begin with. That's 17 XP counting the 10 XP share, for a total of 4 promotions. You use the 1st promotion on Combat I to make him eligible for Medic I. Then spend the next 3 promotions on Medic I, Medic II, and Medic III.

In the end, you'll have a 5th level leader unit with 17 XP and CombatI + Medic III. You'll also have a sixth level non-leader unit with 26 XP.

 

[kazapp]

After careful consideration, I believe Great Generals need to be made exempt from the usual combat rules.

Because the risk of death accumulates, even if you never attack at below 97-98% chance, the risk of death after ten or twenty attacks is still significant.

And what a waste it is to attach a GG to a unit that then proceeds to only attack at 99% success!?!

No, this mechanism was implemented without careful thought to the statistics involved.

I belive GGs must be given the ability to retreat from an offensive battle, even if his unit dies, as long as that wasn't the last unit in the square. I suggest random reassignment to another unit of the same class (cavalry, gunpowder, melee etc) in the square.

There could also be a small (perhaps 5%) chance the GG reappears as an unassigned stand-alone unit to simulate how some great generals settled down after making a name for themselves.

As for the defensive: a GG whose unit is being attacked and destroyed could face a significant risk of dying with his men (50%) before he could reattach himself. And of course, wiping the entire stack is a sure-fire way to kill off a pesky enemy GG.

 

[Squarg]

Best use of a GG if you have the tech lead is to attach it to a privateer. Promote it Drill I-IV and leadership so it: A. doesn't die to anything and B. gains 2 xp per fight. When you have a Uber Pirate leave it in port and kill any trireme/galley/galleon/caravel that passes by. eventualy you promote it to Blitz and it becomes an unstoppable killing machine and when it becomes obsolete... well a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Calouste]

I am still looking to play a game with Ragnar and see how much fun you can have with attaching GGs to Berserkers. Not only do you get 3 free upgrades (Berserkers->Riflemen->Infantry->Mech Infantry), you also get 3 free promotions (Combat 1 from Aggressive, Amphibious from Berserkers and March from Mech Inf) and when you attack from ships, your opponent can't counter attack your land units in those ships, so the units with a GG attached are pretty safe, as long as you have some decent defending ships.

 

[gettingfat]

The Azetec medicIII/WoodmanIII/morale/march uber healer also comes very handy, and can be easily built from a regular Woodman II jag. Your stack will be magically cured in no more than 2 turns. Plug one on a transporter with a stack of marines, with enough destroyers to bombard away the defence, you can finish off your enemies' coastal cities basically non-stop. Try it, it's pretty fun.

 

[The_Reckoning]

What I tend to do is get my starting warrior, if he lives, promoted to Woods III at 10xp, save him in a city somewhere, attach a gg and go for medics.

 

[Calouste]

The Azetec medicIII/WoodmanIII/morale/march uber healer also comes very handy, and can be easily built from a regular Woodman II jag. Your stack will be magically cured in no more than 2 turns. Plug one on a transporter with a stack of marines, with enough destroyers to bombard away the defence, you can finish off your enemies' coastal cities basically non-stop. Try it, it's pretty fun.

By the time you have Marines, you can do the same trick with the Red Cross. A unit that gets Medic I from the Red Cross needs a further 26 XP to become Medic III/Woodsman III. A GG provides 20 of that and Barracks 3, so just have a few units from your Red Cross city see some action and attach a GG to the survivor to get a superhealer. March/Morale is not really needed if the unit is just stuck on a transport.

This sounds like an interesting scenario with Lincoln btw. Charismatic + Navy Seals that have March already. And you can get a supermedic out of the gate of your Red Cross city by just attaching a GG because of the lowered XP requirements.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ calouste: Washington is also charismatic, which means only roosy can't whore up the super promoted SEALS! Hard part is getting there .

OK, I tried a game where I settled NOTHING in terms of GG's on Monarch. To make things more interesting, I played as Washington (no special UU's until late) on a Pangaea (I wanted to fight alot, but IMO pangaea is one of the easiest map types). I attached my first GG to a CR III sword, which I actually never lost. It sounds bad on paper compared to tons of units, but the losses it saves can add up. You really do need a heavy stack mix though.

In classical times, his promos left him at risk somewhat, though I rarely saw odds worse than 92% (thanks catapults!). That only lasted for one war though. Once I hit middy times he was a mace. C3 CR3 leadership march mace. Keeping him alive was easier than expected, especially once I had knights. (a mace GG with C3 will NOT defend before a c2 knight on flatlands, and C2 knights are out-of-gate units). Basically I ran through/vassalized 2 civs using knights/trebs/CR III maces (CR III maces almost never die). The cool thing is that this let me massively promote bombarding trebs, and even super middy defense doesn't hold up vs 5 trebs very long. 1 Treb suicides causes enough collateral, because the GG can mop the top defender easily. It's not 90% odds, more like 98% odds! I love attacking prats with an effective strength of 3!

The game would've been completely out of hand had hatty not vassalized shaka (um, exactly how did that happen?), but I vassalized everyone else (except ghandi, he died really early to an axe rush...). Hatty was actually ahead of me in power and tech, but I DoW'd her anyway because my vassals contributed to basically cornering her (I liberated their cities and gave them my techs, so she had grenades vs grenades). There went her massive SoD. I never saw it again! It was off fishing in vassal land or something. CR III grenades + cannons are just stupid. The GG himself had about 100 xp at this point, march c4 cr3. Yes, it's possible for him to die, but extremely unlikely as CG II grenades protect him in cities (as do muskets when he was a mace, actually), and there is NOTHING on defense that has even remotely decent odds against that without culture D. ONE cannon suicide is enough for him, though I often used them more because they have high odds themselves

So did this game prove GG's are better as warlords? Absolutely not . This game taught me to baby my units to minimize losses though! I've never played a monarch game that felt so easy. I'd say my GG saved me about 6-7 units over the course of the game, which isn't that special when you have 20 cities! Still, it's pretty fun to run around with a super unit . IMO, i'd have been MUCH better off with a medic III unit though. Probably a chariot like everyone else uses. The normal CR III units attacked with plenty good odds themselves, but needed to heal. The GG can't go walking around by himself, so tactically it's better just to shorten down time!

Still, I recommend anyone who hasn't done this to run it once as an exercise, just to raise war win % via practice. AI's seem to cap MUCH quicker when you're winning at 5:1!