Attacked by 20 units on Settler difficulty

[Siddorm]

I had never previously tried Settler difficulty, so I did a quick playthrough out of curiosity.
I chose Quick speed, and I played through as fast as possible. For example, I chose Future Tech at the start; I only built one city; I simply clicked End Turn on most of the turns.
This game was uneventful until Japan declared war on me because my army was too weak.
However, I was surprised that Japan attacked me with 20 units; the screenshot below shows the game state after I had killed some attackers.
I was not expecting such a full-blooded attack on this difficulty level.

 

[cidk2000]

I play cheiftian and find it too difficult im abandoning games especially when warfare is concerned.

I played japan took authority and fealty took 2 trebs 2x heavy skirmishers 6x pikemen and 2 x newly built samurai 1x knight 2x bowmen ( one bowmen as the intial group to take a 33 combat strength city.

raging barbs were on - fun stuff (which included my partial downfall)

I built 12 free company to soak up to turn up in a few turns time in case of deployment

I had defender of the faith, statue of zeus, allhambra etc

I did not use full 34 supply i had it was around 28

Inca took progress and fealty and had no extra warfare boosts

Between me and inca an allied city state

Marched in thier capital was at least 7-8 tilex away !

Practically all tiles between cities were full of mixed inca units.

i used pikemen to soak up attacks / flank units tried to get knight to hit trebs and bowmen and samurai to finish off units moving the trebs in later to hit the city

lost 5 of the 6 pikemen after 10 turns all newly built free company on red or gone samurai city down to half health and units just keep coming and to make matters worse barb hoarde at the city state

5 turns later everything gone

 

[statusquo]

I will treat it as open discussion, so i will comment on what i see, thou im not an expert on how bad AI should be on lower difficulty level.
First of all, you are defending with tier lower units than your opponent. This is usually very challenging and requires careful units positioning.
Second, Samurai is very good unit, and its Japan special unit, so it was easy to foreseen Japan will attack, when their power spike will be.
Also AI managed to have 6 cities where you have just 1. This is a big problem. At this stage, you can have 1 Supply from barracks, +1 From armoury.
But additional one from lighthouse +1 rest is from population supply, which is less effective than buildings.
So Japan should have like 4x2+2x3=14 supply from buildings only. So im guessing about 20+ total.
So im pretty much AI judges your army as "pathetic" and since AI is opportunistic, it was obvious sooner or later you will be attacked.
This rather shouldn't be treated as "surprised attack" since this is mid Medieval Era (Samurai, Knight, Trebuchet).
Considering you probably go tall tradition, you should have Science advantage and defend with superior units, which you don't for some reason..
Also you have to consider, the continent layout, and the direction AIs can expand, basically, Japan has expanded around you until, they met
Rome on the south. Usually close borders are big reason for "tensions" and excuse for attack, and since you were fare weaker then Rome, you were the easy target.
Rome is also very good warmonger, with their Legions and Ballistas, probably freshly upgraded.
Also i don't really see that much of production in your improvements, so you kinda lack production capabilities, 1 Manufactory is good, but i don't see mines or lumber mills.
Also, you have almost 3k spare cash, and this means, you didn't spend it on units or buildings, the question is what are you saving for?
In such case, you probably would like to buy melee units, since they get 5xp per attack, and 4xp per defence, and archers get only 2xp per attack, so it is
much less waste if you just buy melee with expectation, they will get xp in the fight, and produce archers with full xp.
On such terrain as yours you would probably want got for woodsman/amphibious, which would allow you to outmanoeuvre your opponent on your territory.
Btw, on your south is Asika, which is also good warmonger with power spike around Medieval era, also hostile towards you, so im expecting, attack soon.
They probably are hostile to you since, they just don't have respect due to your weakness, meaning, no army.
In such case, you usually want to have your army on cap, and thinking how to make more cap. Usually coastal cities are very good for that doe to lighthouse and Harbour later, totally +3,
comparing to non coastal city.
This i am not sure entirely, maybe like 75% basing on just observation, but if AI takes Authority, it means it would like to expand by conquering, since only by killing units,
they can get Science and Culture.
To see how much army you have comparing to other, you can see it in demographics. Usually if you are last its a big problem. One denounce, can lead to spiral of denunciations, and you
will be fighting on each front. That is why you should always plan long terms your friends, and don't make friendships with their enemies, which would cause drop on your reputation.
War against common foe, is very good way to boost relation with some civ, so in case "exotic wars" (no close borders), you can join, even by offering, since there is a chance you will lose nothing.
Also every time, AI ask you to make joined war, you get reputation penalty since they are "disappointed".. So by agreeing you get like 99 diplomatic points instead like -15.. so there is a big difference.
I see you have 2 great generals, so you could spend one in key defensive position, and additionally get +1 unit supply.
Considering open terrain on the north, i think very nice defensive position would be citadel on bananas below. You could have some melee unit there with 50% more defence, and some archer unit
on hill just after him, you would control the "South front" with just 2 units, and that would allow you to focus rest of your forces on your north front.
No additional hills to attack this unit from range, and jungle around, means no easy retreat. You would probably be bale to kill any range unit in 1 turn there.
Bonus defence from Citadel is enough to defend against better unit, obviously, if you are not swarmed, but usually it does slow opponent down and give you few turns to figure out better plan.
Also i think its too early you used defensive process, since you will be needing more units, your city have a lot of HP and it can regenerate it, so you can let it sink some damage.
Mostly you should be afraid of Trebuchet, and multiple archers, they can also kill You city HP fast if there are like 3-4 of them.
Also you could consider (of course now its too late) chopping down the forest so that your city could attack units 2 tiles away, unless its on hill, then its ok, it would work like "indirect attack",
but then again opponents fighting in jungle have some defensive bonus, but also they move slower.
Also i noticed you don't have any trade routes, some were probably pillaged, but they also give you very good science boost, so you should prioritize it, and of course defend it if possible.

 

[alchx]

Place the Citadel on the hill near the iron. This will deprive Japan of iron (and new samurai) and will reliably protect the two Academies during wars. The citadel will be in the 3rd radius of the city and will serve as some source of science in the late game. Plus you can put two forts nearby.

Against Japan, it is better to completely protect the border with the help of Citadels. The feature of increasing attack while decreasing health allows Japanese units to push through any defense except Citadels.

It is worth considering establishing a city on the coast in the desert (on a hill). There are fish, lots of hills, strong production. This would also protect against landings from the bay and allow the use of horses.

 

[Stalker0]

Place the Citadel on the hill near the iron. This will deprive Japan of iron (and new samurai) and will reliably protect the two Academies during wars. The citadel will be in the 3rd radius of the city and will serve as some source of science in the late game. Plus you can put two forts nearby.

Against Japan, it is better to completely protect the border with the help of Citadels. The feature of increasing attack while decreasing health allows Japanese units to push through any defense except Citadels.

It is worth considering establishing a city on the coast in the desert (on a hill). There are fish, lots of hills, strong production. This would also protect against landings from the bay and allow the use of horses.

I think this is the wrong perspective for such a low difficulty. This kind of difficulty is meant to be a sit back and relax kind of experience, you don't want to think about tactics or strategy, you just want to kill some things build some cities, and just enjoy. If we are debating citadel placement than we have already gone "too technical".

So if players are finding these difficulties too difficult that's a problem, one I'm not surprised at as we have focused so much time on making the AI harder. Perhaps we should do some polling to see what people think?

 

[statusquo]

This kind of difficulty is meant to be a sit back and relax kind of experience

To my knowledge, there is no difference in AI behaviour in different difficulties, so, rules how to behave are true, regardless of difficulty.
Difficulty basically means, how much stuff AI have (please correct me if im wrong).. the higher difficulty, the more advantage it has.. so, if he don't have "stuff" AI will kill him even on Settler, simple as that.
So if you don't use your advantages, to have more "stuff" you will be crushed
Also, you can have easier time on easier difficulty, but the line have to be drawn any way somewhere. You shouldn't be able to to win doing nothing even on easy mode.
Honestly, if AI was able to pump up 20 units mid Medieval era, from 6 cities, i would lie, if i said, i'm impressed xD
The game you lose, are good to analyse mistakes, the games you dominate are the signal you should try higher difficulty, but the are also an indicator, that you finally
doing something right

Also cash is basically liquidated production. So unspent cash is just wasted potential. Investing in worker or buildings have no penalties, and early games you can invest in units, since they should get some
xp on barbs, so you dont need delay army till barrax/armoury that much.. Each invest in building is few turns, if he did 1 city, he would be much faster at point, when he
cant produce any more building, so he could just pump units.
But also learning, that your deployable army is something that determine respect of other civs is kinda crucial observation. I also ignored for the long time this aspect, but, even if your production
would allow you to make three times more army then your opponent, he will not take this into account, while attacking you.
This is also basically issue of any strategic game including like Starcraft 2.. you have to divide your production between eko and army, and if you go too much in eko, you can be attacked with your pants down.

Also, and this is something i learned relatively late. If you have many units near AI border, you have negative reputation since "Your army deployment is extremally dangerous". But this works both way.
If the AI doesn't want to provoke you, it will not keep massive army near your borders.. So if you see "too many units" you should get worry. Many times i accidentally scouted army coming in my direction, and
starting to prepare to war, just to see, i was right You can also use option in "discuss" something "You want to attack me you swine", which forces AI to attack you now, or promiss you, that will not attack you in 20 turns.
Which in games terms means, he will get "backstabber" flag if he does, and AI don't like backstabbers

 

[Xylon73]

ok i was absolutely reading this post wrong at first, i thought those samurai were giant death robots and had so many questions

 

[cidk2000]

I think this is the wrong perspective for such a low difficulty. This kind of difficulty is meant to be a sit back and relax kind of experience, you don't want to think about tactics or strategy, you just want to kill some things build some cities, and just enjoy. If we are debating citadel placement than we have already gone "too technical".

So if players are finding these difficulties too difficult that's a problem, one I'm not surprised at as we have focused so much time on making the AI harder. Perhaps we should do some polling to see what people think?

Yes, I need to be able to have fun with a little challenge, the base game strategy (Empire building is appropriate for level can be challenging) but once you get ahead on techs at least 10 techs warfare does become trivial (Giant Death Robots vs Fusaliers) i wouldnt say that balances out.

I do feel the AI tactic is like a steamroller or defending with extra supply with hardly any penalty.

Fact: Ive never won a war with the AI if tech is about equal.
2nd Fact: Ive lost cities to AI on Chieftain even with defensive units around city

 

[Stalker0]

To my knowledge, there is no difference in AI behaviour in different difficulties, so, rules how to behave are true, regardless of difficulty.

Not quite. At lower difficulties the AI actually randomly chooses between several weighted options, so sometimes it makes "dumb decisions". that was changed so that the AI doesn't do that on emperor+, but I believe its still the case on lower difficulties. @Recursive

 

[CppMaster]

Not quite. At lower difficulties the AI actually randomly chooses between several weighted options, so sometimes it makes "dumb decisions". that was changed so that the AI doesn't do that on emperor+, but I believe its still the case on lower difficulties. @Recursive

Yes, exactly. Number of these choices could be further increased on lower difficulties to make it more dumb. Also, decreasing number of simulations for tactical movements could be decreased, so it's a less chance that AI would use units optimally.

 

[AndreyK]

I see this as a very special case, as stated in OP - he built only one city, he mostly did nothing, just pressed Next turn. I think even getting to Medieval is long enough.

 

[cidk2000]

Not quite. At lower difficulties the AI actually randomly chooses between several weighted options, so sometimes it makes "dumb decisions". that was changed so that the AI doesn't do that on emperor+, but I believe its still the case on lower difficulties. @Recursive

ive seen dumb options much later in the unit cycle but that doesnt help Settler/Chieftian

I see this as a very special case, as stated in OP - he built only one city, he mostly did nothing, just pressed Next turn. I think even getting to Medieval is long enough.

I think it needs to be looked at though im not enjoying warfare! Im losing everytime! My empire building is around Prince possibly King level but combat; I cant compete unless im 10+Techs ahead!

 

[Siddorm]

My mindset for this game was to chill and see what Settler difficulty was like, i.e. see what the AI would do.
Japan started attacking me roughly 8-10 turns before the screenshot was taken, and I killed roughly 5-7 AI units during that time, and on the screenshot we see 14 AI units (plus a GG). This is why I have stated that I got attacked by 20 units.
This is what I found surprising. I had imagined that (since it was Settler difficulty) the AI would attack me with at most 10 units.

 

[stii]

I am a bit surprised the AI attacks at all on settler. I'd have assumed it would let you play sim city if you wanted to. Anything above that attacking is fine though.

 

[Recursive]

I had never previously tried Settler difficulty, so I did a quick playthrough out of curiosity.
I chose Quick speed, and I played through as fast as possible. For example, I chose Future Tech at the start; I only built one city; I simply clicked End Turn on most of the turns.
This game was uneventful until Japan declared war on me because my army was too weak.
However, I was surprised that Japan attacked me with 20 units; the screenshot below shows the game state after I had killed some attackers.
I was not expecting such a full-blooded attack on this difficulty level.

I see this as a very special case, as stated in OP - he built only one city, he mostly did nothing, just pressed Next turn. I think even getting to Medieval is long enough.

My mindset for this game was to chill and see what Settler difficulty was like, i.e. see what the AI would do.
Japan started attacking me roughly 8-10 turns before the screenshot was taken, and I killed roughly 5-7 AI units during that time, and on the screenshot we see 14 AI units (plus a GG). This is why I have stated that I got attacked by 20 units.
This is what I found surprising. I had imagined that (since it was Settler difficulty) the AI would attack me with at most 10 units.

I am a bit surprised the AI attacks at all on settler. I'd have assumed it would let you play sim city if you wanted to. Anything above that attacking is fine though.

Settling a single city, making no tech choices and building hardly any units is not reflective of Settler difficulty.

The AI is at a substantial disadvantage, but if you win the game by standing still, then you got lucky. You have a lot more wiggle room to make mistakes, but you still have to do things. The AI's aggression is reduced on difficulties below Emperor (especially on Settler and Chieftain), but it's not zero.

You can reduce aggression further with the "Disable AI Victory Competition" advanced game option. If you want them never to attack you, DiploAIOptions.sql has a "Passive Mode" option for this purpose.

Not quite. At lower difficulties the AI actually randomly chooses between several weighted options, so sometimes it makes "dumb decisions". that was changed so that the AI doesn't do that on emperor+, but I believe its still the case on lower difficulties. @Recursive

Yes, exactly. Number of these choices could be further increased on lower difficulties to make it more dumb. Also, decreasing number of simulations for tactical movements could be decreased, so it's a less chance that AI would use units optimally.

On all difficulties, when making city production, tech, policy and belief choices, they will do a weighted random choice of all options that have 90%+ of the top score. As the AI scoring has issues, this is not necessarily always smart.

Lowering this percentage will increase the randomness of their decisions.

Reducing tactical AI search depth (which does change based on difficulty level) would mostly have an effect when AI has a lot of units.

 

[cidk2000]

Settling a single city, making no tech choices and building hardly any units is not reflective of Settler difficulty.

The AI is at a substantial disadvantage, but if you win the game by standing still, then you got lucky. You have a lot more wiggle room to make mistakes, but you still have to do things. The AI's aggression is reduced on difficulties below Emperor (especially on Settler and Chieftain), but it's not zero.

You can reduce aggression further with the "Disable AI Victory Competition" advanced game option. If you want them never to attack you, DiploAIOptions.sql has a "Passive Mode" option for this purpose.

Ive disabled the AI victory competition, but cant win at combat vs Chieftain AI, I know your the chief programmer and meant no disrepect but I find it challenging and often stressful during combat, I do want them to attack the game wouldnt be fun if they didnt it would turn in sim city very quickly.

up to industrial im up about 3 techs on chieftain, good on Policies but it all goes to pot when i defend (up to my unit limit) can get really beaten or make no headway as the AI just spams units or taken Authority - thats when i start losing cities

is there any options i can adjust to reduce the unit spam ? My japan game my 20 unit invasion force was wiped out because of the Unit spam thats 2/3's of the supply had Warlike bonuses defender of the faith, level 5-6 units

or a tradition russia game sandwiched between Askia and Poland only having 4 cities and my unit limit and losing units because of the spam

or a Progress celt game where I had 10 units defending equal science and had Himenji castle loosing a city to washington!

Reducing tactical AI search depth (which does change based on difficulty level) would mostly have an effect when AI has a lot of units.

any way i can do that with the files? if the AI does decide to unit spam maybe reducing the maximum number of units at one time it can keep track of for the invasion force say 10 and be dumb with the rest? I cant field that many units it should be fun !

 

[Recursive]

Ive disabled the AI victory competition, but cant win at combat vs Chieftain AI, I know your the chief programmer and meant no disrepect but I find it challenging and often stressful during combat, I do want them to attack the game wouldnt be fun if they didnt it would turn in sim city very quickly.

up to industrial im up about 3 techs on chieftain, good on Policies but it all goes to pot when i defend (up to my unit limit) can get really beaten or make no headway as the AI just spams units or taken Authority - thats when i start losing cities

is there any options i can adjust to reduce the unit spam ? My japan game my 20 unit invasion force was wiped out because of the Unit spam thats 2/3's of the supply had Warlike bonuses defender of the faith, level 5-6 units

or a tradition russia game sandwiched between Askia and Poland only having 4 cities and my unit limit and losing units because of the spam

or a Progress celt game where I had 10 units defending equal science and had Himenji castle loosing a city to washington!



any way i can do that with the files? if the AI does decide to unit spam maybe reducing the maximum number of units at one time it can keep track of for the invasion force say 10 and be dumb with the rest? I cant field that many units it should be fun !

No disrespect taken. First of all, if you can't win on Chieftain, play on Settler, as the AI has a greater disadvantage.

All difficulty bonuses, including base unit supply and the costs of various things, are in the file DifficultyChanges.xml.

 

[tlix]

I played japan took authority and fealty took 2 trebs 2x heavy skirmishers 6x pikemen and 2 x newly built samurai 1x knight 2x bowmen ( one bowmen as the intial group to take a 33 combat strength city.

i think u would need trebuchets with range to even have a chance of taking a 33 CS city (probably their capital, unless ur out teched by incas which isnt uncommon), its way too difficult to siege at a decent pace without cannons.
i like to think wars as a tug of war on resources. units, space and siege opportunities are all resources. you need to eliminate the enemy's units to take space, and you can only start sieging a city when they have given enough space to you, either by them pulling back or you killing their units. in your case you probably tried to take space when they still have a lot of units, and ended up not being to hold it with your own units.

edit: this is kinda out of the discussion of the original topic but basically my point is that, to win wars u need to kill units first. this is usually by establishing defensive positions and bombarding with ranged units, while not losing any units of your own if possible.

 

[cidk2000]

i think u would need trebuchets with range to even have a chance of taking a 33 CS city (probably their capital, unless ur out teched by incas which isnt uncommon), its way too difficult to siege at a decent pace without cannons.
i like to think wars as a tug of war on resources. units, space and siege opportunities are all resources. you need to eliminate the enemy's units to take space, and you can only start sieging a city when they have given enough space to you, either by them pulling back or you killing their units. in your case you probably tried to take space when they still have a lot of units, and ended up not being to hold it with your own units.

edit: this is kinda out of the discussion of the original topic but basically my point is that, to win wars u need to kill units first. this is usually by establishing defensive positions and bombarding with ranged units, while not losing any units of your own if possible.

Thank you, kill units first > then siege cities if they have lots of cities (10+) this becomes a problem especially at authority where the unit spam is endless but ill take your tips and continue to apply them

 

[FinMc]

Thank you, kill units first > then siege cities if they have lots of cities (10+) this becomes a problem especially at authority where the unit spam is endless but ill take your tips and continue to apply them

Ranged is your primary DPS, ensure you have like 60:40 melee/ranged. As many of your ranged units should be firing every turn as possible. Letting units die is a huge issue as XP is extremely valuable so avoid that at all costs, it's okay to retreat.

Use terrain to your favor, being on hills/forest is good. Setting up behind hills/forest can also work as they'll use all their movement on the hill and then you can snipe them.

Ensure ranged units are screened by melee units. Rotate melee units out of combat once they are below half health and replace with fresh melee units. Scouts make good healers with the medic promotion. Healing in enemy territory is pointless and healing in neutral territory is slow.

Don't let your ranged units get sniped by enemy mounted units if you can. Don't over-extend your own mounted units as they'll get shredded without support.