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Attacking in a group

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Bogardan, Nov 15, 2005.

  1. Bogardan

    Bogardan Chieftain

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    I was wondering if attacking in a group has any advantages over choosing who is going to attack first because I noticed that when attacking in a group, the computer chooses which units attack first and I seemed to lose alot of units that way.(it seems to choose my weaker units first)
    Should I be attacking with units seperately to be able to take advantage of any bonus' my unit might have then allow the computer to pick for me?
    I know that when defending, the computer chooses the best unit to defend with first, but when group attacking it seems to make the wrong decisions.
    /pant....any insight on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
     
  2. Ayani

    Ayani Chieftain

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    The computer seems to choose the person who stands the highest chance of success when you attack with a group. For instance, if the top defender is a melee unit, it will choose something tha has an innate bonus to melee. However, it seems to always want to use seige weapons first, which you may not want to do in every case (such as with Cho ko nu).

    It does not seem to take promotions into account, though. For instance, I may have a maceman promoted to have a bonus fighting archer units, and yet the computer may use my knight first, even though the maceman might stand a better chance because of the promotion. Or you may have a unit running around in your stack with a couple of health promotions to keep your stack healthy, but you don't want him to fight and die. The computer might use him to attack and you might loose him.

    Additionally, you may have some lowly troops that you don't mind (or even intend to) sacrificing against the top defenders, just to whittle down their defenses. This can be useful in preserving your well promoted units by not making them attack when they don't stand a chance of winning.

    So I agree, its best to choose which units yourself, but you can always check the numbers before attacking, to make sure you have the edge.
     
  3. MosquitoE

    MosquitoE Chieftain

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    I think the computer calculates the best attacker taking into account defenders and relative promotions. I have tested this by comparing the stats for individual units and for the group as a whole and the highest chances are always chosen first.
    Of course you might not always want to use the attacker with the highest chance of success.
    Sometimes you know you will lose units, so might want to sacrifice some lesser units to preserve your better ones for the kill strike.
    Or you may want to sacrifice some artillery units for collateral damage first.

    The computer isn't perfect and wont always pick the exact unit a human player might chose, but it is helpful to give you an idea what might be best.
    If you are attacking a enemy city with roughly the same tech level there is not much you can do about losing some units.
     
  4. JohnnyRico

    JohnnyRico Chieftain

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    It's also worth mentioning that the AI defender also picks the best unit to defend with and it does so AFTER you initiate the attack.

    SO if you have a stack with an archer, horse archer, and axeman and the defender has an archer and a spearman in a city.... if you attack with the horse, AI will defend with the spearman (because its his better unit against the attacker and AI decides its choice after you make yours), if you use your archer or axe, AI will defend with the archer (again because it receives better bonuses vs the attcker and AI makes it choice after you).

    So as the attacker you think you have the initiative but really there is no initiative modeled in the game, the defender alwys reacts in the best way without fail.

    It would be cool if mobile units (horsemen, etc.) would get an initiative/surprise bonus, whereby if they attck from a distance (start 2 squares away, move in, attack enemy) the defender would then be picked at random. If they attck from adjacent to the enemy, then there is no such bonus. This could model a surprise/initiative/flanking attck done by a mobile unit, unavailable to slow-movers.

    would've been a nice idea anyway.
     
  5. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    From my experience if you attack with a group the computer will pick the unit with the highest chance of success, taking everything into account. It takes into account promotions, which unit the enemy will defend with based on which you attacked with, etc. I find it very useful for finding which unit I should attack with first instead of manually picking each unit and checking the odds for that unit. Now that doesn't mean I always use the unit the computer tells me. Like someone else said sometimes you want to do some collateral damage with a cat first, or you'd rather risk losing a war elephant than a knight even if the knight has a slightly better chance of winning, etc.
     
  6. JavalTigar

    JavalTigar Overlord of the West

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    JohnnyRico:

    That is an awesome idea! Would make mounted units better INHO.
     
  7. Bogardan

    Bogardan Chieftain

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    Well, judging by the amount of ranting and raving my wife does when her 6(grouped) units get wasted on 1 or 2 enemy units she might tend to disagree about that. The computer seems to pick the weaker units on a lot of occasions(more than she would like). Although I'm not sure if she takes into account all the bonus factors.
    Her argument is why would she send in a group against AI enemy if they're gonna get wasted when she could send in indivudual units with a better outcome?
     
  8. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    Is she bombarding down the city's defenses first?
     
  9. Bacchus97

    Bacchus97 Chieftain

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    Flanking seems like it would be an excellent idea to implement. As it is now, your mounted units are just fodder for spearmen and pikemen. By flanking, you should be able to take down archers and other infantry w/o having to face the long poles of the enemy. I hope someone makes a mod that can incorporate this...good idea!
     
  10. MosquitoE

    MosquitoE Chieftain

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    Disagree all you want, but it is pretty easy to test. Group a bunch of different units and check the attack/defense odds. Then ungroup the units and check them all individually. The computer will always pick the attacker with the best odds.:mischief:
     
  11. MosquitoE

    MosquitoE Chieftain

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    This isn't really accurate. If you group units and let the computer pick your attacker the choice of attacker and defender is made at the same time.
    You can see your odds before committing to the attack.
    The defender is chosen based on the attacker, just as the attacker is chosen based on the defender.
    This of course works to the players advantage in defense as well. When you are defending you are essentially watching the computer defend for you. Would you want the computer to not use the best defender? Of course not.
     
  12. weasel77066

    weasel77066 Prince

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    This is somewhat to do with the topic here. If there is a barracks in the city you are attacking, will the defenders heal (like in C3?) at the end of the turn? Or do they heve to (rest heal)? That could also affect the attack order, if you want to make sure and kill a particular troop of his, you would attack first with troops that woulld influence the AIs decision to defend with THAT unit. Say in the case that the AI has a medic unit.
    I havent played much combat yet in C4.. (knock on wood)
     
  13. mortichro

    mortichro Chieftain

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    to me i use individual units to certain speciality like tank 1 has barrage 1 pack a punch on the opposing unit, tank 2 has medic one the first tank to charge in and tank 3 has city raider 1 the finisher of the garrisonned unit.

    this is only for fresh attacks at the early stages of war. Slowly the tanks get promoted getting more experienced and the quicker the victory.
     
  14. dar

    dar Chieftain

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    The AI has an extremely annoying habit of attacking with your damaged units first, even if there are full health units in the stack.
     
  15. Bogardan

    Bogardan Chieftain

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    From what I was told by a friend who has played since Civ I, the computer uses your damaged units first because it considers them more expendable in trying to soften up the enemy instead of using fresh units.
    I think it also takes into account the damaged unit may have more XP than a fresh one so therefore it attacks with that unit first.?
     
  16. dar

    dar Chieftain

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    Why would I want to 'expend' a damaged unit when one with full health would probably win the fight? Even if it has more XP I'd prefer to attack with the green unit, soften up the target for the damaged veteran to clean up and get even more xp.
     
  17. mrjepson

    mrjepson Warlord

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    In my experience the group attack uses the units with the highest chance of winning. Remember injured units are often more promoted and have a higher chance of winning than a less experienced full health unit.
     
  18. Mujadaddy

    Mujadaddy Geheim Grammar Polizei

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    "Why are you letting the AI choose your attack order at all?" would be a better question... ;)
     
  19. WarX

    WarX Chieftain

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    Huh? Did you read what you wrote, that does not make sense at all.

    <takes the vodka bottle away from MosquitoE>
     
  20. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    What he said makes perfect sense. He's basically saying that when the computer picks the best unit to attack with it bases that choice on what unit will be defending against it. So if you have a stack of say a war elephant and a swordsman. The city has an axeman and a spearman in it. The computer would calculate the chance that the swordsman has to beat the axeman and at the same time calculate the chance that the war elephant will beat the spearman. It will then attack with whichever one has a better chance of winning.
     

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