Attrition to eliminate tresspassing

panzooka

Prince
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
433
if tresspassing will automaticly result in war, then what about the territory changes? when your territory expand, and ur neighbough's land suddenly become urs, and he have a military unit on it? war?

my suggestion is attrition idea borrowed from "rise of nation"
when some military unit entering your territory without ROP agreement, that unit should suffer damages from attrition. the effects could be:
can be attacked and killed without cause war (after second move)
strength decrease
every turn after the first move will have a chance of being automaticly captured
every turn after the first move may have a chance of decrease in HP,(number of unit)

none military will not decrease in hp, will not be automaticly captured. worker and slaves are always allowed to enter other territory, if you capture some one's worker/slave, u declare war.
other non military units such as the settlers, king/prince?? can be attacked after the second move.

(first move is a warning for that nation that they are at the wrong spot)

after being captured, the unit may have a chance to:
switch side(to ur side ofcos)
die
spit out random infomation, then release him back to his nation.(interrogation)
(random information can be a random diplomatic/spy mission such as city infomation, military plan, territory map etc. but not steal technology)

but there is always some problems, if this eliminates tresspassing both AI and player, then there is no fun, because as a gamer, u want to see that their units be captured. and thus, the capturing % should be low, and its unlocked from research. so before u research that tech, you have all the right to kill a tresspassing unit without causing war.

tresspassing will still have some use, for example, surprise attack, pillage border improovement(pillage shouldnt result in war straight away, history prooves this)

GTA: SA / Rock*North said:
WARNING, tresspassing will be shot, survivor will be shot again
 
what about units that have no attack or defense feature,,,,settlers..explorers? how would they be damaged by trespasing?
 
I believe you could achieve the same result with supply lines having trouble crossing borders.
 
Superkrest said:
what about units that have no attack or defense feature,,,,settlers..explorers? how would they be damaged by trespasing?
i said somewhere in my post, so read it
 
my bad..lol sorry. i just think that the AI will continue to try..and will spend every last resource they've got rebuilding captured settelers.
 
"Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires" did this very well. Each tile had a support capacity for units in it. If the tile wasn't connected via road to a supply base, the units risked loss to attrition. Units basically rolled the dice to cross mountains, desert, etc. Plains and grasslands were more supportive and you could move larger stacks. Proximity to cities also factored in, but the longer units stayed in or next to cities, you had to manage how much 'food stuffs/supplies' went to the armies and risk starving your people. Hence you were forced to MM your forces in size and position relative to what the surrounding countryside could support. I LOVED that aspect of that game. I always thought Civ would benefit from a similar system and often thought of how hard it would be to mod that feature in...giving each tile a relative support capacity. This in turn would shrink the size of armies, and most likely lead to shorter wars or atleast wars with more intense fighting as capturing the cities becomes more important the destroying infrastructure.
 
I kind of like the idea of attrition but I think maybe it should be dependant on a tech advance, eg if you get Communism advance then (because of partisans) any foreign military units in your borders take damage every round. Otherwise it would be too difficult to make war in the ancient era, when most of your units only have 1 move.
 
I think during peacetime your units should take 1 hp a turn damage except for settlers, workers who would receive a 25% chance of being captured but only after the first turn they are caught in territory.
During peacetime I think that the 1 hp penalty should stay in place if there is no line of supply back to your territory, but you should have a chance to live off the land meaning that if there is any improvements in that territory or adjacent territroy that it will support 1 unit per improvement and that improvement will be pillaged. For example a paratrooper unit dropped out of the lines of supply would last at most 9 turns until it started to suffer attrition and each additional unit would increase the supply losses.
 
If the units "live off the land" and a tile would be pillaged each turn, then I could easily make a bunch of defensive units, send them all over to a "friend's" area, and get to destroy his economy, while still being in peace.

Good thought process though, like the basic idea. Any ideas on how to stop the technique I just used? Maybe combine with allowing other civ to destroy the unit without declaring war. But it would still allow the technique to be powerful, especially right after learning a new defensive unit. Destroy their improvements and get their "less advanced" units to commit suicide attacks on my pikeman (for example).
 
GeorgeOP said:
If the units "live off the land" and a tile would be pillaged each turn, then I could easily make a bunch of defensive units, send them all over to a "friend's" area, and get to destroy his economy, while still being in peace.

Why should you stay at peace if you're pillaging his land? That's an act of war. For that matter, what are you doing in his territory in the first place?

I think Slyk's suggestion is a bit too complicated for civ. Just assume that your units are fed somehow as long as they're in your territory.
 
Commander Bello put forward a brilliant-and simple-idea for supply and attrition. If you were within X tiles of an appropriate 'supply point' (based on the operational range of the unit-as modified by terrain) then you were considered 'in-supply'. If you were 'out' of supply, then the strength of your military units dropped by N% (and you had an N% chance of losing HP's in 'Virgin' Territory), wheras non-military units had an N% chance, per turn, of losing HP until they died (double if entering 'Virgin' unexplored territory). N could either be a fixed number, or dependant on how many tiles you are beyond your 'supply range'-with any possible HP losses being prevented by 'sleeping', for a turn, on a tile.
See, very easy and very simple for even a novice to understand.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Here are commander bello's words:
think, the supply "problem" could easily be solved. It just has to be done by macro-management, not require micro-management.

If a unit / army / battlegroup is outside of your territory, the engine will check at the beginning of each turn about the distance to the nearest let's say three cities. It would do so ignoring all kind of obstacles.
Let's assume (all figures just for display purposes):
Distance to city A: 10 tiles
Distance to city B: 12 tiles
Distance to city C: 13 tiles.

Now, there would be the counter check, now taking into account the obstacles (mountains or jungles which can't be crossed, enemy troops, other unfriendly [but not necessarily being at war with] nations' territories et cetera).
If the distance to move to any of those cities would increase to a figure of 175% of the former distance by taking obstacles into account, the supply line would be considered as being broken.
So, now it would read:
Distance to city A: 17.5 ~ 18 tiles = supply line broken
Distance to city B: 21tiles = supply line broken
Distance to city C: 22.75 ~ 23 tiles = supply line broken

To avoid strange calculation results, anything lower than 5 tiles would be considered to be with a valid supply line.
Thus, any unit completely being blocked would be out of supply, and there would be an understandable concept of when a unit would become out of supply.
Additionally, this concept doesn't require any micromanagement a sending little carts around.
Blocking supply could be imposed just by changing the mood to "unfriendly", being one step below a state of war, so there would be a distinctive risk to send out your units across the whole planet.
As far as I see it, this would work for both, land and sea units.

Thoughts?
And Latter:
Please allow me to point out why I've chosen my suggestion:

Being out of supply for the first turn doesn't harm you too much.
Being out of supply for more turns makes it worse and worse. This is to simulate the little skirmishes which will take place each and every day, but are too small to be displayed on the Civ level of abstraction.
Nevertheless, a unit will never completely die just because of missing supply. You will always have a chance to get them - back. Please remember that when being redlined to only 1hp (1 man), the unit can only move if this move reduces the distance to any of nearest supply areas.

So, there is no infinite movement of units all over the globe (under the assumption that there will be obstacles as mountains, jungles, enemies or at least unfriendly territory).
On plain grassland, otoh, they may move as they wish as you don't face above mentioned obstacles, therefore you won't have a problem in supplying them even over large distances.

Furthermore, I think (hope) that the concept is easy to understand and doesn't require micro-management or micro-calculations, as I see them at Yoshi's and Aussie's proposals (sorry, guys)
Within my proposal, there is just one fact:
You are out of supply and will get weaker. As each units knows about the "basic distance" (was calculated at the beginning of the turn) there could even be a pop-up "Sir/Madam, if we move on, we will go out of supply. Do you wish to proceed?"
In case of enemy interaction causing the loss of supply , you can easily relocate your units (based on the scale of the enemy's action).

No "tile-counting" necessary to calculate your strength after having walked another 2 tiles to the SE...
Link to thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=120782&page=1&pp=20
 
All the supply models I've seen are too complicated. Civ simplifies how things work in the real world to make a playable game.

So, the only supply model I could see working in civ is to have every unit in your borders considered "supplied" and other units would need a special supply unit of some kind, which would make all units in its tile and adjacent tiles supplied even when outside of borders.
 
Oh no, not the 'supply unit' idea again :crazyeye: . That is complicated in its own way-because it adds a terrible level of MM to the overall game-for insufficient benefit. The more abstract supply models can work fine, without the MM, if we just don't overcomplicate things too much. As I said previously, simplest way to do it is to just have the computer do a quick check to see if the units are 'in supply'. If yes, then they are fine, if no, then they fight with a penalty. The only exception to this simple rule is for non-combat units and units entering 'Virgin Territory', but this merely adds the idea of HP loss. Not really that much more difficult.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Well, there IS an even easier way to do supply and attrition ...

Each unit could just have a range (say, 25 squares for a typical Ancient unit). It gets refilled if you return to a city, or possibly if you sit and fortify for a few rounds (simulates waiting for supplies to arrive, foraging, etc). If you've run out of range points, you suffer something or other ... could be hp loss, loss of movement, loss of attack rating, etc.

The problem with being within X squares of a "supply point" is you'll have to be counting tiles all the time, or the map will be cluttered with the supply overlay.
 
The problem with being within X squares of a "supply point" is you'll have to be counting tiles all the time, or the map will be cluttered with the supply overlay.

Not necessarily, Frekk. The easiest way to do it is via colour coding/optional overlay. If a unit is 'in supply', then the circle around it will be WHITE , if it is 'Out of Supply', then the circle will turn ORANGE . If the unit is in danger of HP loss, then the circle will be RED . The supply status will also be indicated, along with all other info, when you click on the unit.
Also, though, you can change to a 'Supply Filter', which shows all of your units in terms of their Supply Status-as well as how far your 'Supply System' extends.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
The idea of each unit having a fuel tank does not seem to be a simplification. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about having white/orange/red zones, or green/yellow/red, or what have you. The mechanism is simple if you want to understand it, but the beauty of that way of doing it is that you don't have to understand it completely to use it effectively. All you have to know is your units can't stray too far from your cities or they start to hurt. If you want to move in a particular direction, you have to build cities in that direction.
 
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