Audio Interview with Sid Meier

[Sullla]

I don't think people are upset about this Civilization Facebook thing (well, not the reasonable ones anyway). It's a great idea to broaden the appeal of the franchise and bring in newcomers to the whole experience. The disappointment comes from the appearance at the moment that there are no full-scale Civ games planned for the future. And it's not as though Civ4 sold poorly; the game was a massive commercial and critical success. I think most of us would like to see both types of Civ games in the works - it's doesn't have to be an "either/or" thing.

The main reason why we're probably not hearing anything about a Civ5 is the uncertain future of Take-Two, the publisher behind Firaxis Games, which is on the verge of bankruptcy right now. Firaxis needs to have their publisher status cleared up before they can get the funding for a project on the size and scale of a Civ5.

 

[Dale]

These are your opinions as hardcore gamers. Just by being on this site, by being willing to click 'end turn' we are all hardcore gamers as far as the industry is concerned. Your dumbed down is someone else's challenging. Spore is a good example. It 'failed' because not enough ppl got their race to space travel and interacted together on a galactic stage. Yet there are still ppl out there who think spore is the greatest. (and are probably on the sporefanatics site complaining about why there isn't talk of Spore2 for their tiny niche market) its all a matter of opinion. I do think your desire for more complexity is the reason civ5 may never get made.

That said, c'mon Sid! (You know you want to)

Math nerds of the world, Unite!

Yes, this is what happened in the high-end accurate wargame industry. The games got so complex that they isolated their own market to a mere few who weren't enough to carry the industry.

Sid talks of the "Flight Simulator paradox". Where the complexity of the game gets so high that there is no one left to play it.

I find it funny when people talk of "Sid's games". Sid designed Civ1, Col and CivRev (now Civ Network as well). Civ2, 3, 4 and Col2 were designed by others. What I find is that Sid retains simplicity and elegance in the design of HIS games, but it is everyone else who complicates the games. Look at Civ1 and CivRev next to each other. The design is as simple and elequant as each other.

To me Sid is a man of his principles. He retains his stance as designing accessible games for everyone. Brian, Jeff and Soren made great games, but much more complex than Sid's design principles.

So Civ Network may seem like a "dumbed down" idea to your hardcores, but I see it as the perfect location for Sid's design principle. Accessibility to games. Where else but Facebook gives you that?

Besides, don't knock something you haven't seen yet. That's just hoser talk.

 

[Fleur-de-Lis]

What I don't like about the interview is that Sid seems to think that the multiplayer aspect of civ is a complete failure and that facebook will fix this. It seems like he doesn't even know some of the basics of his own game like the fact that you can do teamers on civ in multiplayer even his cooperation idea. You can do cooperation vs ai with your friends so if he just completely abandons civ for the pc it will be upseting unless his networks game is as in depth as the Civ franchise on pc.

 

[moscaverde]

I can't really see how the Facebook Civ will bring more people to the "potential" CIV 5. Unless I'm tottaly wrong, a Facebook Civ would must be much simpler than any Civ already made.

 

[phungus420]

Look at civ4 sales figures; it's not a niche game. I know 4 friends who play civ4, none of them are hardcore or would ever think about going to this site, they'll just play a game for a couple of hours on the weekend, and maybe pick it up next weekend.

 

[Afforess]

You need to get something straight however before you tell me to pull my head out of my ass though....... I have tried the mods that you mention!! I do love the content and and stability of Fall From Heaven however I found that it really needed more so I turned to Rise From Erebus however it frequently ends in app crashes!!! I also have downloaded and played Rise of Mankind and its add on mod A New Dawn however, it too is crashing at precisely the moment that things start to get interesting!!! I have also dowloaded and played Wolfshanze........ All of these mods I have downloaded and played.....I love them all in their own way and want them to be perfected so that they do not crash.......

In the defense of all these mods, debugging crashes is incredibly time consuming, and very computer specific. What may crash horrifically on one machine may continue without a glitch on another.

I'm not sure what everyone is worried about, with a dumbed down Civ5. Worst case scenario, Firaxis releases a dumbed down Civ5 and the sales plummet. Guess what, then Civ6 will be incredibly complex, and Firaxis will have learned it's lesson. It's called Capitalism.

 

[jasonjay77]

In the defense of all these mods, debugging crashes is incredibly time consuming, and very computer specific. What may crash horrifically on one machine may continue without a glitch on another.

I'm not sure what everyone is worried about, with a dumbed down Civ5. Worst case scenario, Firaxis releases a dumbed down Civ5 and the sales plummet. Guess what, then Civ6 will be incredibly complex, and Firaxis will have learned it's lesson. It's called Capitalism.

I wasn't attacking the mods exactly. I know something of how programs work and how complicated they are so.....I understand if an incredibly complex mod doesn't work quite right in the beginning. I have faith that if the creator of said mod is dedicated he/she will do what they can to improve or fix it.

The nature of capitalism may indeed bring into existence Civilization V or VI however, capitalism has a very glaring problem........it's often slow and painful and when it's not slow and painful it's expensive. Don't get me wrong....capitalism is awesome cool but, it will not give me Civ V today and apparently it has yet to convince Sid to make it. And, we all know that it will take atleast a year or two from the time its begun to reach the market. Yes, I know I sound like I can't be satisfied and I know it appears as though all I can do is complain but, when your as disgusted with the state of the industry and the choices at hand as I am you tend to go on rants. You will forgive me for giving a damn.

As an example of how completely disgusted I am..... the current situation in gaming has compelled me to return to school to take up the weighty subject of Computer Programming/Science.

 

[Afforess]

As an example of how completely disgusted I am..... the current situation in gaming has compelled me to return to school to take up the weighty subject of Computer Programming/Science.

Awesome! Me Too!

 

[Silv Something]

In the defense of all these mods, debugging crashes is incredibly time consuming, and very computer specific. What may crash horrifically on one machine may continue without a glitch on another.

I'm not sure what everyone is worried about, with a dumbed down Civ5. Worst case scenario, Firaxis releases a dumbed down Civ5 and the sales plummet. Guess what, then Civ6 will be incredibly complex, and Firaxis will have learned it's lesson. It's called Capitalism.

But I don't want to wait that long!

 

[Arakhor]

Fast, High-Quality, Not vastly expensive. Pick two.

 

[NBAfan]

Patience is a virtue.

 

[jasonjay77]

Fast, High-Quality, Not vastly expensive. Pick two.

I reject that as false choices.

 

[Afforess]

I reject that as false choices.

You mean false trichotomy?

 

[johny smith]

I have not even listened to the interview yet. I am downloading it now. I don't think my opinion matters much on the saga of debates, but I will try to say a few things anyway. Civilization will never achieve both I believe casual gamer and more hardcore gamer. It is because genres really don't match Civilization. Casual gamers does not want to get even this involved into a game as Civilization 4.

Hardcore gamers want to press a button and say cool I blew it up in most cases(and usually multiple times quickly). I think 90% of aka hardcore gamers want something that is cooler killing or blowing crap up. Oh ya and more cool graphics.

Anyway I think the real money lies into to giving the game some educational quality versus its state it is in now. The game tries to mimic history which it fails at. Regardless if it would attain a higher educational quality you are probably asking... who would buy it. I think that is the point. Simpler for children to play and to use as a learning tool might be an idea. I am more of the wanting historical game faction.

I think the game needs to find a new niche. At least I people I hear who played it for first time are drawn into it by "cool what would happen if I could start as somebody in 4000 BC". I mean what is with the date of 4000 BC anyway. Doesn't that match the creationist view of when the world began? More giving in to people to not offend versus historical. Does history offend so many people?

Instead of big boobed Egyptian ladies like in aka CivRev. Or cartoon figures of Julius Caesar offering a "Caesar salad". Or a very slanted version of history focusing on Europe and America. I mean it is more of just a game of stereotypes. All Asians look like this, Africans look like this, but oh the Europeans have so much more detail. It is like seeing a black person and claiming they all look the same. Oh that was real classic in Colonization...just leave out the slave issue completely. It is more offensive that it is not there.

To summarize what I am saying. Casual gamers want it more dumbed down. Hardcore gamers want more actions to blow things up in most cases. I mean in as the term is perceived. I would myself want some more detail but not so much focused on that alone. I think it needs some authenticity as a historical game to draw parents to buy it as an education tool. All of the above I never see happening because you have to fill the crave to repeat what people want instead of giving them something new to play with. I will not buy another Civ game if it is the same garbage in content.

I want rant anymore. I am sure I already probably have annoyed everyone. I probably will have list of responses from this, and how it should never be because "It is just great how it is". But if it does not change in my opinion you might as well throw into the same category of "Empire:Total War".

 

[Soda7777777]

I have not even listened to the interview yet. I am downloading it now. I don't think my opinion matters much on the saga of debates, but I will try to say a few things anyway. Civilization will never achieve both I believe casual gamer and more hardcore gamer. It is because genres really don't match Civilization. Casual gamers does not want to get even this involved into a game as Civilization 4.

Hardcore gamers want to press a button and say cool I blew it up in most cases(and usually multiple times quickly). I think 90% of aka hardcore gamers want something that is cooler killing or blowing crap up. Oh ya and more cool graphics.

Anyway I think the real money lies into to giving the game some educational quality versus its state it is in now. The game tries to mimic history which it fails at. Regardless if it would attain a higher educational quality you are probably asking... who would buy it. I think that is the point. Simpler for children to play and to use as a learning tool might be an idea. I am more of the wanting historical game faction.

I think the game needs to find a new niche. At least I people I hear who played it for first time are drawn into it by "cool what would happen if I could start as somebody in 4000 BC". I mean what is with the date of 4000 BC anyway. Doesn't that match the creationist view of when the world began? More giving in to people to not offend versus historical. Does history offend so many people?

Instead of big boobed Egyptian ladies like in aka CivRev. Or cartoon figures of Julius Caesar offering a "Caesar salad". Or a very slanted version of history focusing on Europe and America. I mean it is more of just a game of stereotypes. All Asians look like this, Africans look like this, but oh the Europeans have so much more detail. It is like seeing a black person and claiming they all look the same. Oh that was real classic in Colonization...just leave out the slave issue completely. It is more offensive that it is not there.

To summarize what I am saying. Casual gamers want it more dumbed down. Hardcore gamers want more actions to blow things up in most cases. I mean in as the term is perceived. I would myself want some more detail but not so much focused on that alone. I think it needs some authenticity as a historical game to draw parents to buy it as an education tool. All of the above I never see happening because you have to fill the crave to repeat what people want instead of giving them something new to play with. I will not buy another Civ game if it is the same garbage in content.

I want rant anymore. I am sure I already probably have annoyed everyone. I probably will have list of responses from this, and how it should never be because "It is just great how it is". But if it does not change in my opinion you might as well throw into the same category of "Empire:Total War".

4000 BCE is the starting date because that's when we have the first records of recorded history starting. It's just easy to have a set date to start the game with and move on from there.

What do you mean with making all civs except European civs look different. They all look the same as well. In fact the very basis of making say the Asian civs look the same is basically simplicity. Now I can almost guarantee you that Firaxis knew there would be mods out there that would make every civ look different.

Who do you think you are anyways? You have no right to insult any of us. What would you considered yourself Mr.Smith? Hmmm? A hardcore gamer? Doubtful. A casual gamer? Also doubtful. A troll? Most definitively.

Also, with your issues with CivCol, of course they'll leave out the slavery issue. They left out Hitler from any of their games as well. You wanna know why? I'll tell you why. It's because of a little thing called PC. Now we don't break the rules about PC, or you get that damn board of parents making you change the rating of your game. It's all about success, and no one wants to be unsuccessful.

By the way, you know you were gonna piss people off troll. You knew everything that came out of your mouth would. So quite being a troll. Nobody likes a troll.

Moderator Action: Debate the issues. Calling people trolls is not constructive.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[johny smith]

4000 BCE is the starting date because that's when we have the first records of recorded history starting. It's just easy to have a set date to start the game with and move on from there.

So that makes logical sense right? So we began with writing correct? I mean writing is later tech. I don't see the point. We know nothing before that date right?
The point being it just happens to coincide. Which is convenient. Regardless debating to someone who does not wish to know more is probably pointless.

Oh one thing I have always wondered about. Did these ideas come from the board game or not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_(board_game)#Legacy

What do you mean with making all civs except European civs look different. They all look the same as well. In fact the very basis of making say the Asian civs look the same is basically simplicity. Now I can almost guarantee you that Firaxis knew there would be mods out there that would make every civ look different.

Does Civ4 really rely on others to add things? Ok I guess let me say like this. How many Euro civs are there? How many Euro leaders? The focus on European timeline events is a primary problem. But again I said I think should improve to meet a new niche. It is like a extremely dumbed down Western Civilization course. Western Civilization course do not take in account usually things in Asia or Africa. Which is why I say broaden the view would be better.

Who do you think you are anyways? You have no right to insult any of us. What would you considered yourself Mr.Smith? Hmmm? A hardcore gamer? Doubtful. A casual gamer? Also doubtful. A troll? Most definitively.

Ya I offended you how? I said the stereotype just like the stereotype presented by you. Uh. Ya troll. You said troll. I think I smell a troll, but I think you should look in the mirror before bringing up that word first. You like to fit into one or other types apparently. What are you the "winne brat" type that complains at everyone for having a different view. It must be the only way for you to relate to the outside world.

Also, with your issues with CivCol, of course they'll leave out the slavery issue. They left out Hitler from any of their games as well. You wanna know why? I'll tell you why. It's because of a little thing called PC. Now we don't break the rules about PC, or you get that damn board of parents making you change the rating of your game. It's all about success, and no one wants to be unsuccessful.

You dumber than mud on this one I think. Hitler was in because a government did not want him in the game. Ignoring slavery is like ignoring the total history of the world not just a one time event. No I am not German if that is what you are trying to use to justify a troll argumentation here.

By the way, you know you were gonna piss people off troll. You knew everything that came out of your mouth would. So quite being a troll. Nobody likes a troll.

Ya I offended who? Someone too obsess with a game? Grow up. Better yet. Click here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlsqQAHJyY

One great thing about Civ4 is the modding capability. Something you probably know very little about. I should of said though more detailed history does not mean just more war and diplomacy. The evolution of how cities grow is one primary feature missing to me. I will not post in this thread again and disturb people with their views on their favorite toys.

Moderator Action: Keep it civil. Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Afforess]

I think the game needs to find a new niche. At least I people I hear who played it for first time are drawn into it by "cool what would happen if I could start as somebody in 4000 BC". I mean what is with the date of 4000 BC anyway. Doesn't that match the creationist view of when the world began? More giving in to people to not offend versus historical. Does history offend so many people?

In some ways, I agree. But the really interesting thing, I think anyway, is the Civilization created it';s own niche. Civilization and the sequels all exist and are generally considered a "civilization" game. It's a new genre that they created. Because Civilization isn't just a strategy game. It isn't just a turn-based game. It isn't just a (lackluster) attempt at being historically accurate. There is no way to describe civilization, except with the genre that they inadvertently created.

If Firaxis stays true to the genre and doesn't pander to causal games for the PC game (I don't mind the simplified Iphone & handheld versions, a 5 hour game on one of those doesn't suit me.), then Civilization 5 will be another roaring success. If not, EA learned the hard way that slapping a Sim City title on Sim Societies doesn't fool anyone. The same will happen to Firaxis.

 

[Brave Jay]

I don't think people are upset about this Civilization Facebook thing (well, not the reasonable ones anyway). It's a great idea to broaden the appeal of the franchise and bring in newcomers to the whole experience. The disappointment comes from the appearance at the moment that there are no full-scale Civ games planned for the future. And it's not as though Civ4 sold poorly; the game was a massive commercial and critical success. I think most of us would like to see both types of Civ games in the works - it's doesn't have to be an "either/or" thing.

The main reason why we're probably not hearing anything about a Civ5 is the uncertain future of Take-Two, the publisher behind Firaxis Games, which is on the verge of bankruptcy right now. Firaxis needs to have their publisher status cleared up before they can get the funding for a project on the size and scale of a Civ5.

I think you are absolutely right. I just wish they would get the publisher situation squared away and get on with great game making, and by great game making I mean Civ 5