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Auric alignment discussion

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Rainbowsand, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    There are exceptions. Mahala and Sheelba actually care about their people, though they don't care much for everyone else, Basium doesn't care about anyone's happiness, only about killing demons, etc.
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Basium does care, but he sees the Infernals as a much larger threat than the rest of Erebus. So much of a threat that little things like happiness over a few brief generations are nothing compared to the risk of Erebus as a newly annexed section of Hell for all eternity.

    Basium is willing to fight this war for Erebus, alone if needed, and in the end of the scenarios when Hyborem is defeated he marches off into hell to continue fighting. He makes personal sacrifice, maybe more than anyone else in FfH.

    In our world, fanatic hatred of anything is a bad because threats aren't simply black or white. In FfH Basium's response to the Infernals may be the most logical.

    Basium doesn't have a lot of respect for humans. They are weak and fleeting (which is probably valid from his perspective) and he is quick to turn on those that aren't adamantly and perfectly opposed to the Infernals. Fanatical, yes. Reasonable, maybe.
     
  3. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    One of the tell tell signs of evil is when you start believing that the cause justifies the means...

    Basilum vs Agres is something of a Hitler vs Stalin contest. Sure, one will eventualy get rid of the other but are they really that different to the world around them?

    In Aurics case thou there really is no contest. Both the cause (Become the new god of winter and send the world into an icy death) and the means are evil. Hence he must be evil.
     
  4. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    actually, no... he doesn't want to send the world into an icy death. he just wants to extends the dominion of ice everywhere at the expense of the other gods. people will still live in the ice and cold.
     
  5. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    I'm not sure that's apt. Before the infernal struggle, Basium was simply the angel of life, guarding the underworld. The threat of the Infernals is what made him so aggressive.
    Either Hitler or Stalin would have been monsters even without the other.

    If Basium 'won' the people around him wouldn't suffer. He isn't interested, I don't think, in setting up an oppressive empire. But he won't win anytime soon, and the struggle is likely to tear the mortal world apart
     
  6. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    When I see Basium I see a person who divides the world in two groups.
    Those that are willing to sacrifice anything at a moments notice just to fight the Demons and those that aren't.
    The first are to do so right now, and the rest... why do they hesitate? They must be in league with the demons! Burn Witch!

    That is how I see Basium.
     
  7. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Thats fair, except whats different about Basium than any examples from our world is that Basium is right. The world really is on the verge of ruin, and it is the people who are tolerant of the infernals who are putting the world at risk.
     
  8. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    The problem is that he will not stop at people who are tolerant (AV worshipers and their allies).
    He will also take out everyone who is not directly aiding him.
    If I am siting nice on the other continent killing any demons that come close and caring not for the rest of the world I will be deemed evil by him.

    If some pedian entries are to be quoted he does absolutely nothing to care about things like Innocent bystanders and collateral damage.
    You are either with him or against him.

    For him, the fight against Agres is the only thing that matters. If tomorrow someone told him he could kill Agres and all he had to do was butcher all the babies on Erebus I am quite convinced he would do it without thought.

    In my eyes, he has already become that witch he is fighting.
     
  9. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Thats a very fair assessment. And one which most of Erebus shares with you.

    But the immortal souls of those dead babies will still be fine tomorrow, in fact they will dwell in peace for eternity. If those babies live their full lives and then die only to have the world and the heavens fall into hell what is the result? Life is just a breath in the war Basium is considering, and he doesn't place much value on it.

    In our world thats a crazy stance since our afterlife is at best unknown. But considering what Basium knows (that death is temporary and the infernal threat is eternal) isn't dramatic action to end the infernals the most reasonable option?
     
  10. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    While eternal sleep of Arawn's plane doesn't strike me as being particularly desirable (sending someone to Arawn is an immoral act in my book, though there are sure worse afterlifes in Erebus), it's true that the existence of a good afterlife for good people makes morality quite complicated.
     
  11. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I still think that once you start fighting fire with fire it no longer maters who wins.
    Becouse in the end "fire" has consumed all.
     
  12. Rasta69

    Rasta69 Chieftain

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    So can we look at "good" and "evil" as being more so a definition of how much they struggle against the Infernals? I remember someone saying that at some point.

    On the fighting fire with fire issue, well you can take a little more comfort in Erebus from the saying "Kill em all! Let God sort em out", because, well, they will!
     
  13. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Am i right to assume then that good/evil line of alignment of the leaders in Kael's opinion are based more on the attitude towards their subjects than their actions related to the world's destruction/preservation/restoration? The very simple, striking thing is that: if Basium is good by battling threat of world's annihilation, his attitude towards his little human subjects being throwing them in endless horrid battles or excruciating toil for war supplies, then why an Auric who strives to restore the part of world with use of his subjects similar to that of Basium is evil? I see now that there are two tangled scales of alignment judgement which need a separation: for tiny mortals and the gods.
    Another question on which i do request an answer: what Auric shall do after completing his Ascension? Which side of godly conflict shall he join, if any?
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    The principal difference between the two is that Basium knows that the immortal souls of those humans he inadvertantly kills will go to one of the heavens (unless they're Evil, in which case he meant to kill them); Auric, on the other hand, consumes the souls of those killed for his ascendancy. They are obliterated and do not go on to any heaven whatsoever. Which makes it seem to be a monumental vampiric ritual, as the Calabim also consume the souls of their victims.
     
  15. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Another gap within my knowledge...
    Requesting confirmation from Kael: Is that exactly so, or ritual just weakens the souls of those caught in it by draining them of power, in likeness of ritual described at the second book of "Witches' world" by A. Norton, as i do presume?
    Yay, if he really does that what Valkrionn just said, then Auric is really-really evil:sad:
     
  16. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    There isn't any canon about the state of those souls from the ascension ritual or from vampiric feeding. The only canon we have about people dying but their souls never appearing in the afterlife is the Aifon's.
     
  17. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    So "canon-wise", i take it, both my and Valkrionn's views upon 'the Draw' are just a speculations.
    Few arguments to add a weight to mine: as soul is one of the greatest commodities in world of magic, with uses many and unique, both Auric and Mulcarn by Canon are "cold and calculating" and obliterating numerous souls of followers when imo technicalities allow for just a weaken (a simple logic: required amount of power can be gained in smaller quantities from the wider area and soul destruction is irrelevant towards (with?) gaining process) is such an immeasurable waste that no calculating emergent deity can allow.
    Which, in its turn, removes Auric's ascension from the list of world-destructive deeds and leaves me with opinion like this: by mortal standards, Auric is 'neutral evil',
    as he uses any necessary means for his advancement. But towards the Erebus destruction/salvation he is neutral which for him being rather god than mortal does outweighs the human "morale" (uuh, he does looks nasty and does mean stuff!:eek:) concerns; and as i earlier said, within the game he needs relations boost with neutrals who prove to be valuable allies; in FfH lore he appears cooperating with neutral-aligned leaders although he then betrays them - good argument against the 'lawful' in his title. And Illians philosophy goes no meaner than neutral "survival of the fittest".
    As i now see, the neutral plank should be extended lower, including some now labeled as evil along with Auric; as intro movie that tosses between vampires and demons under title of "great evil" also a noble-looking Ulvin portrait and winter elves (Another canon questions: do 'svartalfar' engage into foul, decadent, deviant practices like those of Dark Eldar? Is Esus an evil god?) strikes me both logically and intuitively as wrong. Orks are also arguable: in WoW they were neutral until corrupted and harnessed by demons, and shook their oppression later

    A small advice on enhancing intuitive perception of evil: a few books and games on Warhammer shall(along with temporarily, in weak mind cases permanently disturbing one's sanity) give an excellent examples on how the REAL evil looks like.
     
  18. hbar

    hbar Constant

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    I think Kael put it best:
    Auric seeks to improve his own power at the expense of many others. Therefore, evil. (FFH evil, not necessarily D&D evil, or Hitler evil, or Planescape evil, or Warhammer evil, or Dune evil, or Cthulhu evil, or Dubya evil, or Battlestar evil, etc.)
     
  19. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    The proper way to gauge the Good vs Evil thing is to go through this check list:

    1. Does he love demons?
    Yes - Evil
    No - Continue to question 2

    2. Does he hate demons with all his hearth?
    Yes - Good
    No - Continue to question 3

    3. Is he the sort of person you would want living next door to?
    Yes - Good
    Maybe - Neutral
    No - Evil

    Take special note at the order of the questions.
    Numbers 1 and 2 overwrite 3 under all conditions.
    So for example AV Jesus would count as evil while Order Satan would count as good.
     
  20. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Replace 3 with
    3. Does he not bothers about demons (and anyone else) unless they interfere with his plans?
    Yes - Neutral
    No - return to 1

    and you shall get close to my point of view.

    About "person next door" thing there is a classical example of Bree hobbits and Aragorn. Or the Grey Wardens.

    Yes, yes and White Hand Auric would count as neutral. The point of all my blathering troughout all this top. Which i feel i should better cease.
     

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