Auric evil?

megamanx06

Caswallan
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I was reading the "Mega-units" thread, and i realized that Evil is trying to bring about Armageddon while good is trying to prevent it, right? With that in mind, people like Auric shouldn't necessarily be evil, as they are ambivalent to whether or not Armageddon occurs. Or is the alignment based on how they treat the people, in which case some good leaders shouldn't be, and maybe a few neutral leaders should be? I just couldn't see Thessa adopting slavery, for some reason...
 
I dont buy into the distinction of good/evil as simply wanting to bring or prevent armageddon. Good is defined by putting the needs of the many above the needs of a few. Evil is putting the needs of the few above the needs of the many.

But many people dont see Basium in the same way I do and view him through modern morality (our current culture being extremly anti-fanatism), or in the scope his questionable means. The fact that he will destroy a city of goodly people to achieve his goals. To them that defines him as evil.

I see Basium and being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good. It is this sacrifice that makes him good. In a world where demons opely thrive maybe fanatism is the most reasonable response. And maybe the "tolerant" that impede Basiums goals are just as dangerous as the demons themselves.

We can argue the appropriatness of Basium's action. But in my mind he is fanatically good, fighting an impossible war to save creation.

Cassiel is the other person who alignment is often questioned. He is neutral in FfH but you can make a good argument that he is good. He is certainly a very charismatic and empathidic character. Its really hard not to like him.

His neutrality, in my mind, comes from the distance he puts between himself and everything else. Where Basium is over enagaged, Cassiel isnt engaged at all. He teaches self-sufficency and management at the local level. Imagine if we had a US president that dismantled the federal government and then hung out in the white house talking philosophy. Come to think of it, it doesnt sound to bad ;)

Anyway, thats where his neutrality comes from. But I will admit that its a very fuzzy line, he is definitly a lot more good than any other neutral leader (some of which would be considered evil in other games).
 
Trying to bring about Armageddon isn't the defining quality of evil. While some evil civs want to destroy the world, most just want to corrupt and control it. Auric is firmly in this camp.


The Evil gods are those who opposed The One, siding instead with Agares. Agares did not think it was fair for The One to take away the power of creation which he had given them, and 6 of the 21 gods agreed. He offered them freedom of purpose instead of just freedom of action, which for an avatar of a precept means the freedom to corrupt the very nature of the precept.


Agares and the evil gods want 2 things: Freedom and Power. They think they should be free to use their power as they wish, but actually their power will always enslave them and attempting to use power in a way other than that The One intended will warp the power into something horrible. True free will is not possible to one is totally dominated by a single precept. In my view, The One has always intended his creations to have true free will, and he tried to remove the power of creation so that this free will would not be so hindered. I think any god could gain free will, but to do so must abandon his precept. Only one god has ever been willing to do this: Nemed, who gave up the precept of life in order to father humanity. He is revered by all the gods because of this, and the gods also now revere Sucellus because they see Nemed in him now that he has taken on the precept of life. Even Agares greatly admires Nemed for being willing to sacrifice so much to create something so great as Humanity. He also likes humanity, as he sees in it the same spirit of rebellion that spurred him on.


When The One discovered the corruption of Agares, it had already spread to all parts of Creation, including to the gods themselves. The One could not destroy the taint without destroying everything that had been tainted, which was everything. His holiness was so great that his mere presence would cause the destruction of the world he so loved, so he had no real choice but to withdraw to the True Heaven. However, before cutting Creation off, he tasked 7 gods still loyal to him with protecting humanity from evil and guiding it to enlightenment, so that one day the taint might be removed and he could rejoin his beloved creations. (The other 7 gods were still loyal to him too, but their precepts were ones that dealt more with preserving the natural world instead of humanity. The difference between good and neutral is largely contrived, but roughly corresponds to different levels of fanaticism and idealism versus isolationism and pragmatism.) The good gods (who had themselves been tainted, but not enough to rebel) too this command as a mandate to fight to destroy all evil, even though The One had never told them to try to destroy evil, just to protect good. (I think that he, like Jesus, would have ordered them to "resist not evil," as a fanatical devotion to destroying evil can drive us to do evil.) They built large armies of angels and beasts to aid in this crusade, and the neutral gods did the same to protect their own areas. In order to do so, all the gods relied on the power from the gems of creation which Agares had stolen; they don't seem to have minded the hypocrisy of using the stolen power of creation to fight those whose sin was stealing and using the power of creation. Agares constantly brings up this hypocrisy, and is disgusted by it.



Since Agares fell, his precept of Hope has been corrupted and changed into the precept of Despair. Just as he appears to forever grow old an wither, I think that his precept continually falls and drives him deeper into depression. While he was certainly active in the godswar, I tend to think that Agares has since then sunk deeper and become almost useless except as a figurehead for the movement. He once dared to hope that he could conquer the True Heaven and seize the throne of The One, but has always known deep down that this is beyond all hope. He destroyed his own paradisaical world of Nyx in spite, just as The One had chosen not to destroy his creation. Agares has since resolved to prove that The One is no better than him, that all his own shortcomings are but bad design on the part of The One or a vice in the omnipotent himself. While Agares may like to destroy Creation out of spite, he really wants The One to be the one to destroy it. The satisfaction of breaking The One's heart and showing him to be as flawed as his creations is the only victory left for him.


Agares and Ceridwen want to destroy Creation, but there is no evidence that the other evil gods share this goal. I tend to think that every god desires Creation succumb to his own precept. For Agares this means total despair, for Ceridwen it means ripping it apart, for Aeron it would be the total domination of the weak by the strong, for Camulos it would be chaos and war, for Mammon it would be greed and insanity, for Esus it would be the total loss of all truth, and for Mulcarn it would have been stasis. All of these are major deviations from the plan of The One, but they do not all equal Armageddon. Most of the evil gods would rather the world stick around for them to dominate.


Mulcarn was the least evil of the evil gods. His hell was unpleasant, but livable. He seemed to recognize that his aspect was but one of many important parts of The One's plan, that rest and winter were gifts that were needed in order to refresh and prepare for spring. I tend to think that he wouldn't even have sided with Agares had he not felt so abandoned by everyone else. He saw everyone moving on without him and grew very jealous of the worship given to all his siblings. This jealousy and sadness drew him closer to the greed of Mammon and the despair of Agares, while the burning passion of his nemesis Bhall (at the time the greatest champion of good) pushed him away from the side of good and his dislike for Sucellus drove him from the neutrals. Primarily though, his aspect is one that idealizes and wants to return to "the good old days", which in this case meant that he opposed the change of having the power of creation taken from him.


I tend to think that Auric is much more evil than Mulcarn was, which is tragic since he was such a nice boy. He bears a deep malice for Sucellus and Kyorlin for opposing him, and has extended this to all who seek to follow them. The reactionary drive to regain what was lost was always a bit darker than his usual aspect of keeping things as they are, and having lost godhood makes this element of his psyche dominant. Additionally, I tend to think that his human nature is trying very hard to balance out the strength of the element of ice in him, and is doing so through rapid fluctuations between elements of passion and despair, causing him to become very unstable and bipolar. He is seeking to do precisely the opposite of what Nemed did (which I personally consider to be The One's intent for his children), and so is further from his original purpose now than before his death. He feels a need to suppress his humanity in order to become a god again, and so is now less humane than before he was human.
 
Interesting insights, all around. I always felt like Nemed was abandoned by the gods after he gave up his godhood to create humanity. The fact that they respect him for his sacrifice begs the question: Why the heck aren't they trying to help him? He is being brutally tortured by Os'Gabella, and probably has been for a very long time.
 
He offered them freedom of purpose instead of just freedom of action
This is what he said, anyway. He's not always honest. ;)
And likely he tempted each god differently to side with him. He tried to make wild, passionate Bhall feel constrained by her service in aiding the good Angels, while showing Mulcarn that the world was passing him by and leaving his ancient rites and traditions behind, so he needed to act when he had the chance.
 
Interesting insights, all around. I always felt like Nemed was abandoned by the gods after he gave up his godhood to create humanity. The fact that they respect him for his sacrifice begs the question: Why the heck aren't they trying to help him? He is being brutally tortured by Os'Gabella, and probably has been for a very long time.



Well...it isn't all that clear that they know where he is, for one. The gods of Erebus are far from omniscient. I tend to think that Ceridwen probably knows, but has kept it secret from all the other gods. If any god does not find Nemed worthy of reverence, it is Ceridwen. She has a tendency to disagree with her siblings, and seems to delight in doing what every other (even Agares) finds abhorrent. She is responsible for teaching men to use the power of the gods, for leading men to steal three Gems of Creation from Agares, and for hiding and protecting Os-Gabella when she refused to submit to Nemed and produce humanity as it was originally intended, with a physical form as permanent as the soul. I tend to think that Os-Gabella is as close to Ceridwen as anyone, so she would side with her over Nemed. It may be that Nemed is a major threat to her plans, as he has the potential to draw together those she wants to break apart. No one understands her reasoning, or really anything about her. There are even doubts that she was created like the other gods, or that she is confined to the same multiverse as they are. To me, she seems to be the most evil and least empathetic god. Agares doesn't even come close to her.

(I'm not sure why, but I tend to think that The Emrys consider her to be the equal and opposite of The One (just as Gabella was the equal and opposite of Nemed), that The One can not keep Ceridwen or her followers from accessing the True Heaven (or True Hell?), that the other gods are but pawns of the 2 real deities, and that The One may actually be Ceridwen's prisoner whom she will eternally torture and confine but could never truly defeat. Of course, they are probably wrong about all of this.)


It is also important to realize that the gods are mostly manifestations of their precepts, and so they may view the precept as being the true being of an individual, even more than the Divine Spark. As such, Nemed is not the god they so revere, he is just the human husk left behind by the god's demise. While the act is worthy of the utmost respect, Nemed himself is now a lesser being not worthy of being counted in their number. The True nature of Nemed now resides in Sucellus, so it is Sucellus who deserves to be honored.
 
Auric is not evil. He's the only one who combats the Golbal Warming. The fact that the only character in the mod who does something to prevent it is labelled as "evil" proves that FfH is nothing but right-wing propaganda.

:p
 
Where were the Emrys ever mentioned? They're not in any of the lore I've seen...

Yeah, they are pretty obscure. They aren't in the game at all, but MC is a living FfH encyclopedia who may or may not have hacked access to my hard drive/brain.
 
Yeah, they are pretty obscure. They aren't in the game at all, but MC is a living FfH encyclopedia who may or may not have hacked access to my hard drive/brain.

i've almost wondered if he's really your alter ego. that aside, i've been through the lore a bit and i thought the power Agares secreted throughout Erebus were the mana nodes, not just 3 crystals of creation. what are 3 crystals?
 
i've almost wondered if he's really your alter ego. that aside, i've been through the lore a bit and i thought the power Agares secreted throughout Erebus were the mana nodes, not just 3 crystals of creation. what are 3 crystals?

Their 3 impossible wells of energy, in form of gems. Each gem is aligned with a diffrent sphere, with the gems being Death, Air, and another I can't think of. The gems are each held by a "mortal", with one being fused to it's owner's hand. That's what I can recall, and someone else should be able to explane more in-depth.
 
The Gems of Creation are the only artifacts ever removed from the True Heaven. They were created by Agares before his corruption was discovered, back when he and the other gods still had their full power of creation. He created one for every sphere, and linked each one to an infinite plain of its pure element. When The One took away the power of Creation, Agares could continue to create not ex nihilo but by channeling from the infinite plains through the gems. He shared this power with his fellow gods. The evil gods sided with him to protect their right to keep creating, while the their gods went ahead and used the power he had allowed them while trying to condemn him for it.

The Gems of Death, Air, and Water found their way into the hands of the Three Brothers. I don't think it has been specifically stated, but I get the impression that Ceridwen helped them steal the gems from the gods--against the will of Agares.

The only one of the three brothers whose name we know is Tuoni, in whose hand the gem of death (The Opalus Mortis) is now lodged. It is from this gem that all death magic must be channeled, as Arawn will not allow the power to be channeled from him or his Netherworld. Tuoni was a major villain in one of Kael's D&D campaigns, who was trying to get Tebryn to go ahead and destroy the world with his rituals so that he could capture the souls of and create a new world where he would rule as a god. In the end though, the ritual was stopped before it was completed, but not before it had gathered enough energy to power Auric's ascension.

The brother who held the gem of air was also in the campaign, but mostly as a side note. People were to busy to help the players characters because they had to fight a conqueror who would use powerful whirlwinds to destroy any armies sent against him. It is not known if the gem is lodged in his hand, simply held, made into a crown/scepter, or whatever.

The brother with the gem of Water was never really mentioned.

I tend to think that possessing a gem of creation would cause a man to become as dominated by one element as a god is, therefore dramatically altering his personality to be rather like that of the god of the precept. It would not make a man evil, but a man already tainted with wickedness would likely become drunk with power. The Gem of Death would make a mad very somber and stubborn. The Gem of Air would make a man very reckless. The Gem of Water, however, would make a man calm and passive, thus negating the effects of being mad with power and making this brother never really become a serious threat to Creation. The calmness might very well make the man see no need to keep tapping into his new power, thus keeping him relatively balanced and sane, and even if he does go crazy he would retreat into himself instead of lashing out. Thus, the brother who holds them gem of water could remain anonymous indefinitely never attracting heroes to seek to slay and usurp him.
 
Good is defined by putting the needs of the many above the needs of a few.

Then what about Thessa? While she focuses on the external affairs of the elves, it doesn't seem like she'd favor the few above the many.
 
Then what about Thessa? While she focuses on the external affairs of the elves, it doesn't seem like she'd favor the few above the many.

I would imagine Thessa's neutrality represents that although she will favor the many (elves) over the few (individuals), she may not favor the many (All people of Erebus) over the few (elves). She is definitely toeing the line of good more than most neutral leaders though.
 
Yea count me into the crowd who is quite puzzled about Thessas Allignment.
Especially in light of what Kael has described as the ultimate sacrifice.
Only that for her it was what seems like conscious choice (or being controlled by someone elses dream. But that's hardly a good/evil issue then...) not fanaticism and sacrifice Jack Baur style (that comparison is a bit blunt and non-fantasy but i believe there are similarities to Basium. No? Isn't that fictonal character also labled as "good" by some? :p).

And I'm more puzzled by her alignment than by Cassiels (he might still be the far nicer person to be around, that much is likely). Especially after reading her lore in more depth.

Also one of the really sad stories which make the mod so special and indeed make it dark fantasy.
Romantic Story gone really bad but still not in a way one could describe as a fall in terms of the lore (unless I'm totally mistaken.) or psychotic thriller. Shows how much more interesting Stories without an all happy ending are...


The only angles i could imagine it are things only vaguely touched by the lore (family background / dabbling in darker magicks and things like that) or a bent on elven isolationism...
But casting a 10*10 Sanctify doesn't exactly sound neutral or evil to me.
Or unless she changes so radically right after her deed that her mind darkens from it. But the oposite could be just as possible.
 
Well, she only knew how to cast said spell because she dabbled with a tomb of forbidden death magic.
 
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