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Australia Considering Humanitarian Visas for Persecuted Farmers in South Africa

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Commodore, Mar 15, 2018.

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  1. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    Well, looks like South Africa is descending into a racist hellhole again. Except this time it's whites being persecuted and facing violence from the black majority. Apparently the situation has become so bad that Australia is considering offering humanitarian visas to South African whites in order to protect them from racial persecution in their own country.

    One statement that struck me as particularly disgusting was this statement from the South African government:

    Someone needs to tell this fool that it doesn't matter if it's done "according to the law" or not, this program that is essentially determining property rights based solely on the color of one's skin is inherently racist. Especially since the proposed program would allow the government to take land away from whites without having to compensate them:

    Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/australia-wants-apos-persecuted-apos-203149694.html

    What I think is also extremely shameful is the fact that the UN has been completely silent on this issue. They have no problem condemning the United States as a "racist" country due to some questionable crime statistics, but refuse to condemn South Africa in the same way when they are advancing a blatantly racist agenda. Now do you see why the UN is seen as a complete joke of an organization by a large segment of the US population?
     
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  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    The Australian government offering persecution visas to South African whites is, ironically, a move dripping with white supremacy, top to bottom. The whole idea that white South Africans are in some kind of crisis is a white supremacist fabrication.

    Again ironically, you make this post on the basis of what I assume must be near-total ignorance of the situation in South Africa. Now do you see why the US is seen as a complete joke by a large segment of the non-US population?

    There are some things to be said about Australia's discussion of extending persecution visas to white South Africans while it keeps brown migrants in concentration camps. "South Africa is racist against white people" is not one of those things, however. South Africa is a place where white people own something around 70% of the productive land. Ever wonder how that happened when white people are 10% of the population?

    The further irony is that by posting this stuff you are simply feeding into the effort by various white supremacist groups to turn this into an example of "white genocide". I saw a post on Facebook a few weeks ago where Laura Southern, a Canadian neo-Nazi internet personality, had gone to talk to the white farmers in South Africa to try to portray the situation that way. There are BBC headlines asking whether "white people have a future in South Africa?" The whole thing is totally ridiculous.

    What the actual effects of the land redistribution law are remain to be seen. I suppose it's possible that we could be gearing up toward some kind of Zimbabwe repeat but I tend to doubt it.
     
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  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam GiftOfNukes

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    From what I've seen/heard:
    • There is video footage of a leader singing about shooting their minority population.
    • You have written language to the effect of "we are not advocating killing them...at this time".
    • They're actively stating intention to alter the constitution to seize property without compensation (probably why they're claiming they will do this "legally" or some such).
    When a country is stating it is going to go full Venezuela on a subset of its population it's not a situation that should be ignored in principle. In practice, the UN is a complete joke/farce more inclined to do crap like denounce Japan over cartoons than it is to actually physically do something in South Africa, Middle East, or basically anywhere with strife. Similar to how Rwanda has been handled and other nations with horrific internal strife, whatever ultimately manifests in SAfrica is unlikely to make enough powerful people care unless they perceive strategic value/resources/some reason to "help".
     
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  4. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It's actually pretty easy to test this. If the humanitarian visas are offered, but with only token welfare from Australia, then we'd measure their perceived need based on how many people take advantage of it. A non-racist policy would be to offer any-and-all farmers (undergoing redistribution) access to the visas. A more politically possible version would be offering visas to those who get negatively affected by the redistribution. The first would be better than the second, because it would then defang the partisan attacks.

    Now, when it comes to refugees, I am a strong believer on over-investing at the early stage in welfare support to vastly accelerate the improvement in a refugee's life, but (as we see with many immigrants) if people are willing to come despite the lack of welfare support it would be because they perceive it to be an improvement in their own conditions, because they're scared or whatever

    The thing about 'without compensation' is what is most easily targeted. That land was originally given without paying its true cost, which means that there has been (effectively) unearned profits for some time, profits enough to build a defensive nest egg. But that tends to be the activist's analysis, not the normal person's. We live in a world where eventually we need to recognize the legal ownership of property rights, or else everything is a mess. That said, maybe I am just blanking. I am not able to think of an example of a large-scale seizure of property worked out well for the underlying people in the longer run.
     
  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Along with the visas these white farmers will undoubtedly be offered plots of land that white colonists took from the natives of Australia to replace the land their own ancestors took from the natives of Africa.
     
  6. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Neurotic Panda

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    It's Tradition!
     
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  7. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    It is only a race issue if the argument includes only a certain genetic makeup creates better farmers.

    Otherwise it is political, and we all know politics is the only way to change cultural mores.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  8. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I agree, but the test is looking at the discourse from the same people now talking about white South Africans as a persecuted population when they talk about actually persecuted populations that aren't white.

    From what I've read it isn't actually clear whether there is going to be a large-scale seizure of property.

    See, yet more clueless contributions from ignorant foreigners! There is a line in an anti-apartheid resistance song that goes "kill the Boer, kill the farmer." It is like rappers talking in the US about killing white people (rare) or (more commonly) cops. I'll give you a pass on this one because it is being presented the way you present it here in most media outside South Africa...quite aside from the dishonest attempts by the alt-right to portray it as advocacy of "white genocide," which narrative echoes into the mainstream far more than any actual explanation of the historical and cultural context of the song.

    Every square centimeter of land owned by white people in South Africa is stolen. The real problem is that if this transition is mismanaged it may cause a serious economic problem that will lead to lots of unnecessary suffering.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    In South Africa there is one thing that "the color of skin" can demonstrate beyond any argument. If they have white skin their property rights were established without compensation. Your concern that those same property rights are being revoked without compensation without equal (or any) concern for how they were established is amusing, in a dark sort of way.
     
  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    You're an ignorant foreigner too. The Bay Area may make you feel like you live in Johannesburg, but it's actually quite different. Your words hold no more weight than anyone else's. Shall we brand your posts as "clueless contributions" as well?
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Bay Area? As in the vicinity of the Chesapeake? Never heard it referred to that way before...
     
  12. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    I don't live in the Bay Area, but more importantly I've been in meetings of COSATU (the Congress of South African Trade Unions) in the Parliament building in Cape Town where they sang the exact song TMIT is talking about.

    So no, I don't think we should brand my posts "clueless contributions," but you certainly can do that if you like.
     
  13. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    Crap, you're right. I have no idea why I thought you d- Right, because you were there recently and hung out with Tim and Hobbs. My b. Shoulda went with D.C. I bombed my own zinger. :lol:
     
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  14. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    You don't punish people for the crimes of their ancestors, even if they may still be benefiting from those crimes. Regardless of how those property rights may have been established, those whites are the legitimate owners now, and to steal it away from them out of some misplaced sense of "justice" is no less than a full on crime against humanity.

    This is rich coming from you. You were one of the people dismissing similar defenses of the lines in the Canadian national anthem that used the word "sons". So basically when it's a cause you agree with the "it's just a song" defense is perfectly valid, but not when it's a cause you disagree with? It is precisely this kind of hypocrisy that keeps you from being taken seriously by anyone that doesn't already subscribe to your brand of political extremism and self-loathing anti-white racism.
     
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  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Also incidentally the climate in the Bay Area is a lot more like the climate in Cape Town than Johannesburg. Johannesburg is a lot hotter and wetter.
     
  16. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Chieftain

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    Funny to see an American saying this. Not that I doubt you'd hold the same attitude if the same policy was enacted there of course, but still.
     
  17. Chose

    Chose Chieftain

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    If people were held responsible for the crimes of their ancestors, every last one of us would be guilty.
     
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  18. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    No, you don't punish people for the crimes of their ancestors. But restoration of stolen property to the original owner's estate isn't considered punishment. No one has said, ever, that artworks stolen by Nazis, when located, should be left with the family of the Nazi and not restored to the family they were stolen from.

    North America is where the Europeans avoided this problem by effective use of genocide. Unlike their performance in Australia and Africa they didn't leave enough natives alive for there to be enough descendants to give it back to. Not something I feel great about, by any means.
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think people worrying about 'claims on the crimes of your ancestors' have a point, but they also need to look at time-scales. If the theft had occurred within the lifetimes of the victims, you can understand why the re-assessment of the underlying property rights needs to occur.

    There's always going to be call to 'let the past be the past'. Sometimes it's the right call, sometimes it's the wrong call.

    Absolutely, racial xenophobia is by far-and-away the biggest problem we have with properly dealing with any ongoing refugee issue. It short-circuits nearly any discussion of the game theory around it. I see it time-and-again.
     
  20. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    When it ruins the livelihoods and potentially impoverishes those who are having their land stolen from them, then yes it is a punishment. And it is especially true in this case since the government is trying to amend the constitution to avoid compensating the farmers for their land. For me to be okay with this redistribution plan, the government should have to pay these farmers around 10 times what their land is worth. That way they have enough money to restart their lives after losing their land.

    I mean, let's just call this program what it is: Vengeance. It's not justice or wealth redistribution, it's the black majority in South Africa trying to get revenge on the white minority for past wrongs now that they are in a position to do so.

    Taking a painting from someone and stripping them of their livelihood are two different things. And for what it's worth, I do believe there have been cases where the descendant of a Nazi who stole something was fairly compensated to have the stolen "thing" returned to its rightful owner. And in other cases they get to keep it because the original owner or their descendants cannot be located.

    Even further, there are voices in the art community that strongly argue against removing looted art from German and Austrian museums for the sake of returning them to descendants of the rightful owners. The argument being that art is always better off in large public collections where it can be viewed, rather than stashing it away in some private collection.

    EDIT: And looking into it even further, I found there are even some European courts that have ruled too much time has passed for descendants to have any legitimate claim on looted art.
     
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