Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by chicorbeef, Apr 8, 2018.
There's no particular Austria thread, so I'm just making one. Discuss away!
Discuss what? They're balanced and leaders are more-or-less locked now.
if you want some strategy advise, you ask it in the strategy part. About balancing austria is balanced around : very weak early and one the strongest late game I've ever seen. Total Congress control and insane gp generation.
There's a post for every single other leader in the game, so I decided that if someone wants to post anything about Austria too, they ought to be able to do it.
I like Austria and I think it's balanced, that's not the point though.
I'll throw in something to discuss, so this awkwardness ends.
I love getting Hussars from city states and upgrading them to Cossacks. (did not get them to upgrade to berber cavalry or comanche riders yet)
This seems a lose or win civ. If you survive to modern, you have an easy end game. Overall I like its design. This is the civ that teaches about city quests rewards.
I've played a few games with Austria. Very fun abilities and a good example of what a balanced civ should be like. The early game is tough however, so you should always prioritize short-term snowballing opportunities over long-term interests. Once the quest machine gets rolling it's truly impressive. I also find they have surprisingly little need for making diplomatic units, unless there's stiff competition. So wonders like the Roman Forum aren't particularly important at all.
I finished a random roll game with Austria, on King (I had to step down after a break) and testing epic, I am not sure, if the marriage bonus isnt too strong. The permanent +1 Delegate as long as the City state is alive is very powerfull, even better then the german ability. It gives Austria the possibilty to skip Statecraft, if you dont aim straight for a DV (nevermind, I picked it anyways).
But the best part is definitly the +15 % GPP. That can just be insane, if you manage to get 10 marriages or more, you have a permanent +150% GPP generation in your traditional capital, which is quite unrivaled compared to any other UA, maybe only Arabia can compete in that scenario.
The +50% from quest is very luckluster, but those numbers can be just juicy I have to say.
Im not sure, even considering the Coffee House, I might recommend to lower the GPP bonus. If you focus on GPP couple with other social policies, a fitting religion, you can just bulb like crazy all the time..
But like I said, it was a King game on Epic, was quite long, so I wont play Austria that soon again. But the bonus lowered to +10% might be enough. Or maybe tinkering with the general marriage, if you have the gold to spent it, it is just a nobrainer...
Is a cap possible?
You could say 10% per marriage (max 100), something like that
Austria doesn't even come close to the top 10 civs. Their bonuses need to be strong to compensate for how late they happen. I couldn't have less of a problem with them.
How about a cap based on the number of City-States in the game?
I don't even understand how some people can complain about Austria which is balanced around the fact that she starts with litteraly no bonus. Everything need to be strong, UB is renaissance, UU is renaissance. the UA is ultra random, early on (hard sometimes to reach the barbarian camp or build a wonder with no early bonus ). And if you play at the right level, you will have to wait in order to get any benefit from it because you won't be able to get free influence from early wonder or early gp.
I am really really against any nerf against austria. We are talking about balancing the game around the one game experience in king Epic.
What will it be next time ? we will nerf celt because in settler marathon, you are able to win domination in ancient era ?
I think what the OP is getting at, not that Austria is overpowered per say, but that their strength can wildly vary with the number of CS.
So if a lot of cs are available, they are much stronger than they would be normally. It’s the equivalent of giving the ottomans twice as many trade routes in certain games...it would make them very very strong.
To me, a cap doesn’t hurt the core of Austria. If they can still acquire a big bonus, and they are balanced with that bonus, than all is well. The cap would just ensure that Austria can’t get a ridiculous bonus if the conditions are right.
So that’s the devils advocate. On the other hand I think we can argue thst a lot of leader abilities scale with certain map settings, and can snowball hard if allowed. Austria isn’t really a special exception there, and Austria isn’t on the F list in my opinion, so I don’t think a change is necessary.
So explain me how does nerfing from 15% to 10% per marriange doesn't influence the standard standard setup ?
we are nerfing the standard setup because people are playing 43 civs with 96 cs ? why don't we nerf huns/celt because in duel, they are totally unbalanced ?
A cap based on the number of CS in the game sounds reasonable and fair across all map sizes.
My vote is against any cap. Ya’ll are being a bunch of fun-police, mandating how the game should be played. If people are manipulating map settings so the civ they want to play has an advantage then let them. If you want a balanced game then play with the settings the game is balanced for. Otherwise let the children have their toys.
TL;DR - if people are breaking the game then it’s because they want to
+15% GPP in capital per every CS marriage.
A marriage costs 500 + 100 x every existing marriage. That's 500, 600, 700, ... And requires 10 turns of alliance.
In a tiny map, with 8 city states, Austria gets up to 120% GPP, but spends only 6800 gold. It's easier to achieve an eventual alliance for 10 turns with every CS out there. So it can control World Congress with little effort.
In a standard map, with 16 city states, it rises to 240% GPP, but requires 21600 gold and it's much more difficult to get those marriages rolling, since some of the lattest city states will have insane influence values. It takes more time to control WC. On the other hand, there are more CS quests available.
I need more evidence that Austria is stronger in bigger maps before any change. Even then, a cap sounds like bad design to me.
For the record, my cap point was a joke, as there’s already a cap based on the number of CSs: it’s the number of CSs.
I think Austria is crazy strong, you just need to use it right. In particular Austria is the only unique civ that plays Tourism starting with Authority instead of Tradition.
lol, I was going to say...
Would you rate them top 10? I wouldn't. I didn't claim they sucked or even were below average, only that they're balanced correctly as-is.
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