Discussion in 'General Balance' started by avl8, Oct 11, 2016.
Standard map weakling here, just had sand kicked in his face.
The heal on kill nerf was uncalled for. 20% was a bit more than the damage a melee unit would take from finishing off a unit, but now it doesn't even worth to bother.
I've been thinking and there is a way to make Authority more equal for all map sizes. Just, like, make the unit kill yields proc per city, but with yields maybe becoming slightly smaller based on the amount of cities you have (but still ensure the amount of Culture/Science is higher after a city is made/conquered than it was before), until you get 3C-2C culture tops per kill at, like, 20-40 city mark. (at some point the scaling of yields to be lower should stop, making another city pure gain with no worse scaling, because Civ loves rounding values unfairly too much and it'd result in all cities getting 0C per kill) Perhaps also making the downscaling after next city based on map size just like Technology-cost-gain per city is. The same could be applied to the city settle/conquest and CS demand bonus, making Authority also useful for larger maps and actually making it wide friendly, which is what it sort of advertises.
It doesn't even really step on Jelling/Acropolis - at that point you're probably at least in Renaissance and they get 15C in all cities per kill due to scaling, soon to be 20 in Industrial. It doesn't even compare.
Just give in to the power of the dark gods of Large Map, though the late game does become a pain and you must turn off the Bad Event System unless you're some sort of psycho-masochist who enjoys having some tiles burnt down in his 20+ city empire every turn while the notification showing you where those tiles are inevitably breaks due to the self-pillaging happening in a few cities at the same time, until the notifications even stop appearing and you just hear the sound of pillaging and a notification while no notification even is shown. In all those cases you have to search for where the happening actually occured, which can be rather hard as pillaged cities aren't that easy to spot.
Maybe I'll give a standard map a try soon though.
Way too complicated. I think Authority is still very functional when going wide, for reasons I've outlined above and elsewhere.
Dunno, it goes pretty much exactly through the same thing as tech cost. It can be written easily on the sopol description (dunno if xml too) - just "receive culture/science based on the number of cities, game length and map size" (currently it IIRC doesn't currently mention it scales by game length, but it does), not mentioning how it's calculated there just like it doesn't mention how the Japanese Dojo is calculated.
And yeah it is functional - it doesn't suddenly disable building settlers after all - but at 7-10 cities Progress is just better at everything except for the measly 10%CS and the scrawny 10% melee heal, which is more than compensated for by Progress having an actual finisher, no need to waste a third of your military by having it just stand around in the cities doing nothing and stealing 2-4 GPT each as well as way more yields that allow you to just rushbuy armies or buildings as you see fit.
I think the heal nerf was in the right direction. However, I'm looking to give a tiny bit of power elsewhere for authority. I think that honor giving free units can go, and as many suggest, can get increased unit cap. Or, my alternative is to actually buff courthouses for authority, like getting extra happiness (because warmongering has a lot of happiness issues). This way, you are being awarded more than normal for being aggressive, however, it's part of the high risk high reward type.
I don't think Authority needs any changes, but your alternative makes a lot of sense in the abstract.
I can't make Authority work many times, but that's me and my builder mentality. Although Luka has a point for Tribute bonus. It helps once you are strong, but doesn't help you to be stronger. I'm a stardard map player, for the record.
For me, Authority is almost fine. You are supposed to fight often and conquer, the point of Gazebo is true, by the time Authority bonuses decay, you are already in a good position. In vanilla, a wide start (in the sense of a city every 5 tiles) was very strong early, and thus useful for early conquests. This is the same. I don't quite understand the nerf for healing on killings, this was made in the assumption that Authority was too strong, but then, Authority decays faster than the other trees.
All policies together are ok, but when I consider the moment they come up, I feel some a little akward. For example, if a major civ is nearby, I may go for the science on killings, but then the free settler is almost useless by the time I can have it. I can delay the gold bonus on border expansion if I have some gold in my map, but it's quite difficult to find science in any map. So, in my mind, science bonus from killings takes preference over the other branch, and that delays the settler too much. Only exception is if my map seems too peaceful, but then Authority is not going to perform well.
Free settler for tier 1 policies I might consider. Having a free settler so early is quite potent, and a good reason to think about delaying science bonus. It also let's us approach other civs faster, so the fight can start sooner.
For the rest of the policies, the border bonus is useful to maintain a larger army, the happiness bonus and cheaper maintenance is needed for consolidation and honor is a mix (the strenght bonus is needed for raw combat and the free purchased units are for consolidation).
I'd rearrange policies like this:
Dominance (T1) -> Honor (T2) & Discipline (T2)
Imperium (T1) -> Tribute(T2) & Discipline (T2)
So early settler can compete with science from killings, and both are needed to pick Discipline (happiness).
If no fighting is nearby, I'll go Imperium -> Tribute -> Dominance -> Discipline -> Honor
If I'm losing fights, and money isn't a problem: Dominance -> Honor -> Imperium -> whatever
For a balanced progress: Imperium/Dominance -> Discipline -> Honor/Tribute
Personally, I don't much care for the free unit and 10% CS. Would be more fun to have an XP bonus for units per city or per population (+1XP/city or +1XP/10pop), so you could crunch out decently promoted units in new cities, without needing military buildings as much (while also making more 'elite' units in your core cities, instead of a boring +10% CS).
That's a good way to set the tree up - right now the only true way to play Authority is to go right - take Dominance, Garrisons and then go left and finish it. If you don't, you slow yourself down. Every time I go with the left part first, I feel severely weakened due to not getting all that Science from barbies. It'd allow more ways to go.
But the "losing fights" part makes little sense as nobody will ever pick Honour as anything but dead last, especially not as a second major policy. You won't even get an unit at this point (unless you've got some insane Food going on), and +10% CS won't suddenly turn a war around. Honour is so bad at city growing, I've had games where I got 0 units (!) by the time I finished the branch - though I did have mines, Jade included. And Ancestor Worship's +2 Culture to propel me even faster.
I also don't care about the free unit at all - what confused me is that people implied it is OP before in this thread. Like, who even takes this policy as anything but dead last? I never feel an impact of any sort from it. A free disband gold (or a few influence over a CS I've already dazzled) once in a blue moon.
The +10% CS is better than nothing though and it is an edge over others of some sort, way better than just a few XP points as you can't get it otherwise so it is pretty valuable, so I can't really agree with you at all.
That's funny -- I find the policies equivalent enough that I have a hard time choosing, but... I tend to take Tribute asap. Food and gold mean a lot more to me at the start than science. The one that I find myself putting off for too long is Imperium, mainly because I don't want to wait that long for my second Settler. If I were to ever play Authority for a Domination win, though, I would probably go to Imperium after Tribute, as I wouldn't be as concerned with not getting every good nearby build site, and would wait until then.
I do not disagree, but whenever I think of all those barbies I didn't get Science for, I get sad. Though I do go left sometimes, but lots of science and +2C +1H on the right makes me go right almost especially because the units do not cost 50 bln Gold in maintenance each at this point
Agree with Txurce, Tribute is my favorite policy in that tree. Also, tribute has good synergy with other trees so it allowers dippers to use honor with other trees. I really really really don't want to see it moved out of T1.
Tribute isn't the problem, Imperium is. But if you care so much, don't touch Tribute.
Then, what to do with the almost always too late settler? How can Imperium help with empire expansion other than culture from new cities? If moving the free settler upwards isn't an option, then it may be better to change it for something else. A free Great General perhaps? Something that makes up for the lack of buildings and people? More faith, preparing for Piety? Faster courthouses?
In this case (without the feeling to rush Imperium), the tree could be like this:
Dominance and Tribute, no reqs,
Discipline requires Tribute (instead of Dominance)
Honor requires Dominance (usually last policy, unless more might is needed).
Imperium requires Discipline (and optionally requires Dominance too if the extra bonus is too good).
This way, I can pick military bonus if I need them, or gold/culture/whatever otherwise.
When I go authority and I'm not going into an immediate full war (aka I'm just dealing with a lot of barbs or want to expand quickly), I will normally go Tribute into an Early Settler.
Now its true I'm missing out on the science bonus, but instead my new cities basically insta grow to size 2 because of Tribute and I have an extra city on top of what a progress player has. And although they may have the 20% faster buildings....with the money from tribute I actually can compete in building production with investments and my +2 hammers (maybe even outshine them until there full production bonuses come online), or have the flexibility to buy units if needed. I also can afford to make road infrastructure without worrying about the debt if I so choose.
I think as the trees are filled out than Progress does beat Authority in city development...but of course that its purpose. But early game I think Authority is just as strong if not stronger than Progress...and more flexible.
After testing on the latest version I'm also thinking Authority was nerfed too hard.
The problem is the timing window. We've agreed that authority is worse late game, but that's supposed to be okay because you're already ahead on account of stealing a bunch of cities.
The problem is that the AI will build walls very quickly in their cities now.
That means that other than picking off new cities without walls, you can't kill cities until catapults unless you're extremely close to someone and your start allows you to get in there with archers before they can research walls.
Then once they research walls you're screwed on taking their city until catapults, at which point the other branches are at or close to the point where they start outperforming authority.
In addition you mentioned that authority should make you fight better in the feilds, but consider that the only bonus that does ANYTHING for fighting in the fields (until the last policy) is the heavily nerfed 10hp heal after a melee kill.
That's the only combat advantage you get until the tree is complete, and since the nerf it's complete dog****. 10hp doesn't even tend to cover the damage you take finishing someone off.
The idea you're having that authority is strong because you can take 6 cities doesn't take into account that progress can fight almost as well as authority for most of the trees while maintaining a stronger empire and not having the risk of picking authority only to find out you're alone on an large island or simply too far away from your enemy to properly wage war early.
Authority is all risk and no reward when it comes to combat. The only policy that's actually amazing for what the tree wants is garrisons on account of how good the happiness can be.
My suggestion is to undo the nerf to the healing on kills and/or add a 15% bonus to attacks on cities somewhere you'll get about when they get walls.
Maybe I'm just salty at losing to the deity AI a couple wars in a row that I used to be able to win on 9-30 though. Not sure how much that and being sick is clouding my thinking, so take this with a grain of salt.
I think you're too salty. I do just fine on Immortal with Authority and I don't miss the 20hp healing that made my units unstoppable. Walls just prolong a siege and I suppose on Deity that would make things a good deal more difficult, but Immortal works fine for me and I doubt I'd have much difficulty on Deity if I played as the Zulus or something.
I dunno in Deity, but in King I almost always build Statue of Zeus, and my swordsman are able to take most cities, except capitals and City States. What I ask of Authority is that it lets me fight while underdeveloped and not suffering too much for said undevelopment. This is achieved mostly by culture and science on killings, extra hammer in every city and bonus on border growth.
My problem is that if I go for the free settler first, my science progress is too slow: no other science source, underdeveloped cities, and more cities, all together makes me fight with low tech units in late classical to middle age. If I delay the settler, it saves me just a few turns. It seems like a choice, but I prefer science over another undeveloped city.
Really? The free unit is a life saver because you "ambiently" generate garrisons that help keep your happiness up while most of your units are out fighting wars. If anything, I'd like to see it buffed to a free unit every 7 population...
Yeah, problem with that is that those units don't benefit from promotions like Moral, so they are undertrained, and that you reach to unit limit sooner. Other than that, I agree that this is a practical way of providing garnisons for an extremely aggresive civ.
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