Avoid a Navy at your Peril

[Harv72b]

Not a good example

AI knows how to flank and possibly feint with its navy

Add in a few codes that gets them to form "hunter killer groups" (whether be using Privateers/Frigates or purely subs) to target the most dangerous aspects of your navy (or all of it), and it'll be even more challenging.

Yeah, I remember reading that thread when you first posted it. So in one game the AI pulled a nice tactical attack and gave you a glimmer of hope that it really was a competent foe now. Problem is that this runs counter to what I (and others) have seen repeatedly in numerous games, making me believe that its actions in your contest were just a series of fortunate coincidences.

Don't get me wrong, the combat AI in G&K is vastly superior to vanilla...but it's still not very good. The only time I lose naval units to an AI fleet when we're at the same technological level is when I intentionally leave a unit to soak up shots rather than risk a more important asset and/or the AI moving its ships somewhere to block my advance in the next turn.

 

[smallfish]

Yeah, I remember reading that thread when you first posted it. So in one game the AI pulled a nice tactical attack and gave you a glimmer of hope that it really was a competent foe now. Problem is that this runs counter to what I (and others) have seen repeatedly in numerous games, making me believe that its actions in your contest were just a series of fortunate coincidences.

Don't get me wrong, the combat AI in G&K is vastly superior to vanilla...but it's still not very good. The only time I lose naval units to an AI fleet when we're at the same technological level is when I intentionally leave a unit to soak up shots rather than risk a more important asset and/or the AI moving its ships somewhere to block my advance in the next turn.

I agree - the AI could be improved upon. Look at my suggestions elsewhere in this thread and that one.

But to say that its completely a waste is a folly.

 

[Barghaest]

This is something they should address in a patch.

Honestly, if Great Generals are allowed to cross water, why can't Great Admirals cross land? In games where you have two unconnected oceans (which is something that always annoys me as well, I hate maps like that), there should be a way to move the Great Admirals across the land from one ocean to other.

All other Great People can cross both water and land, why not the Great Admiral? If they want to treat it like a ship and can only follow naval rules, then it should have the defense of a ship and not the defense of a Great Person.

I can agree with this; however, most of the games with two unconnected oceans I have played have a means to bridge them (either a one tile square perfect for a city... unless a CS/AI screws the pooch with capital placement) or a string of ice tiles (granted only useful for submarines or mods where you can eventually navigate/clear ice).

Then again, I tend to play Continents maps over a more land-based one so I have seen truly isolated inland seas much (seen quite a few bizarre ones where the land look more like a net with all the inland seas, but none TRULY isolated from connecting to others via city channels).

 

[Harv72b]

I agree - the AI could be improved upon. Look at my suggestions elsewhere in this thread and that one.

But to say that its completely a waste is a folly.

Definitely not a complete waste, just still not a real challenge when you're on an equal technological footing (or even when the AI is a little ahead). But by now I think everyone's getting the message that you can't just ignore having a navy in G&K.

I can agree with this; however, most of the games with two unconnected oceans I have played have a means to bridge them (either a one tile square perfect for a city... unless a CS/AI screws the pooch with capital placement) or a string of ice tiles (granted only useful for submarines or mods where you can eventually navigate/clear ice).

Then again, I tend to play Continents maps over a more land-based one so I have seen truly isolated inland seas much (seen quite a few bizarre ones where the land look more like a net with all the inland seas, but none TRULY isolated from connecting to others via city channels).

This is why they so need to bring back bases which can serve as canals, or at least allow ships to enter citadel tiles. The Suez on Earth maps is a perfect example, as there's pretty much always a CS one tile away from forming a canal on the larger maps, and the Egyptian capital is too close on the smaller ones.

 

[smallfish]

Definitely not a complete waste, just still not a real challenge when you're on an equal technological footing (or even when the AI is a little ahead). But by now I think everyone's getting the message that you can't just ignore having a navy in G&K.

Great, we are both in agreement that your complete capitulation sounds reasonable.

 

[Gucumatz]

Was having a tough multiplayer game the other day.

Not because I didn't lead in tech (because I did)

I was getting 490 beakers per turn (Huns) and my nearest competitor was getting 280 (But had Porc and Rationalism bonus) and was teching with research agreements with the other human on his island)

======

Anyways was a Frontier map and after I conquered everyone on my continent I started to settle coastal cities, but he came with his navy and crushed my cities one by one. I managed to keep a single coastal city, but its production was limited and even with the superior tech he only spammed navy so I could never break his stranglehold.

A navy is massively important.

===============================

Fun tactic though. I used this as a delayer tactic since I couldn't hold out on my small coastal cities and the stupid AI might not be able to handle this on its own so it may be worth it for you all. (with a human it only worked for so long)

There was only a single coastal tile to enter my city so I sat a privateer in it, and bombarded whatever naval unit came near. Then I captured the ship with my privateer, giving me another ship for defense for a turn.

When my city was low on hp, I timed it so I had 2 privateers built - waited till he bombarded my city to 1 hp then sold the city to an ai civ (cap had been taken earlier) and then my 2 privateers were teleported out, and so were all his damaged units. I used the opportunity to take 2 frigates and and killed some of his units

===================

But the point is in multiplayer you need an even larger navy than before due to prize ships - or you will get crushed.

 

[SmileyMan]

Against a human, I would give one of your bombers (assuming 3 promotions on build) Targeting III. Won't destroy a large navy, but might slow it down a bit, and can be used to pick off destroyers camping your ports.

 

[Gucumatz]

Against a human, I would give one of your bombers (assuming 3 promotions on build) Targeting III. Won't destroy a large navy, but might slow it down a bit, and can be used to pick off destroyers camping your ports.

The problem was sight though. Was a frontier map, so my coastal cities weren't in ready access to be protected from my cap and main cities

 

[SmileyMan]

The problem was sight though. Was a frontier map, so my coastal cities weren't in ready access to be protected from my cap and main cities

Perhaps a Sonar Net building would redress the balance? Build it in a city and see naval units (including subs) up to 7 tiles away.

 

[smallfish]

Perhaps a Sonar Net building would redress the balance? Build it in a city and see naval units (including subs) up to 7 tiles away.

I like this idea. It'll act as a Fighter recon (6 tiles) when you don't have fighters in that coastal city, and maybe it'll also get its range boosted (1-2 tiles) when you do have a fighter/jet fighter based?

 

[Harv72b]

Perhaps a Sonar Net building would redress the balance? Build it in a city and see naval units (including subs) up to 7 tiles away.

How about being able to launch spy satellites? Once built, you place it on (really, over) any tile you wish and it provides a view of, let's say, 4 tiles in every direction. No attack or defense strength and cannot be seen or attacked by enemy units. Would be ideal for watching over coastlines.

 

[Darac]

How about being able to launch spy satellites? Once built, you place it on (really, over) any tile you wish and it provides a view of, let's say, 4 tiles in every direction. No attack or defense strength and cannot be seen or attacked by enemy units. Would be ideal for watching over coastlines.

This sounds like a possible late game expansion to espionage.

 

[SmileyMan]

This sounds like a possible late game expansion to espionage.

That would be great. Have your agent perform an 'infiltrate military hq' mission and see where all their units are!