1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Avoiding the "warmongering menace to the world label"

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by wobuffet, Jul 18, 2011.

  1. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    It seems to be awfully easy to convince all the AI players that you're a warmongering menace the world. I don't have any idea exactly what this is based on, however – DoW's made, Cities taken over, damage dealt, units killed, military size, number of turns at war, etc.?

    And does it degrade over time, or does the label pretty much stick?


    In terms of motivation, I just started a game (King, Standard speed) where I got DoWed by Alexander ("Our proximity has fated us to be enemies") and his two Allied City-States early on. He took over a frontier city of mine, I took it back, then we made peace. I didn't make peace with the two CS's because I wanted to take one or both of them over, and I did manage to take one of them a few turns later.

    Lo and behold, 3 of 4 AI Civ's that I've met are convinced I'm a warmonger, even though I didn't start a single war myself.


    edit: It's from before the June patch, but I found this thread where some folks have dug into the diplomacy XML files: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?106570-AI-Diplomacy-From-the-XML-(A-Quck-Interpretation)
     
  2. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    8,583
    Location:
    Missouri
    Conquering two city states would definitely get you a warmonger label. (That's wiping out 2 complete civilizations)

    And taking back your own city didn't help there either; you'd have been better off if you had kept the city from falling to Alex to begin with as far as warmonger status goes.

    Basically completely wiping out a civ regardless of who started it is a similar penalty to a DOW. But the penalties are cumulative.
     
  3. vonbach

    vonbach Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    I don't think you can honestly.
     
  4. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    Nope, just one.

    And I assume that the AI doesn't consider taking over a CS nearly as seriously as it does taking over a Major Civ, no?

    Really I'd just like some kind of documentation or pointer to the appropriate XML files to investigate myself, if possible.
     
  5. Furycrab

    Furycrab Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    815
    Relative size also plays a huge factor. If you really want to avoid it, stay small. Killing Civs and CS seems to add % modifiers to how they perceive you, but really the end decision will be based on how big they perceive you as a threat. If you end up having more than half a continent to yourself, you'll have a hard time convincing the small civs otherwise. It will either be "You are a warmongering menace" or "you build cities too aggressively".
     
  6. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Allen, TX
    Yeah in my current game I took over a military CS that was close to me and had a useful luxury resource, the entire world thinks i am a warmonger now :(... Probably the last time Ill take over a CS
     
  7. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    8,583
    Location:
    Missouri
    Actually, if anything the AIs take wiping out a CS MORE seriously than taking out a major civ.

     
  8. That nerdy kid

    That nerdy kid Vampire Slayer Slayer

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    428
    Location:
    Standing next to Waldo
    this is by far the stupidist insult they have
     
  9. jdog5000

    jdog5000 Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,601
    Location:
    California
    Here's how the system works (based on XML variables and study of logs):

    Civ B is evaluating Civ A's actions and assigns them a warmonger score. These scores are dependent on Civ B's personality as follows:

    temp = 5 * (declarations against majors) + 10 * (majors conquered) + 5 * (declarations against minors) + 10 * (minors conquered)

    WM score = (B's warmonger hate) * temp

    Notice that the only actions considered are declarations of war and the final blow in conquering a civ. I am certain that these are the only two things considered, city conquering if it is not the last city does not make any difference at all. Also notice that Majors and Minors are considered exactly the same. These actions are only considered if B knows A and the third party at the time the event occurs I believe. Defensive pacts, coop declarations, who they're at war with - all of those things are irrelevant currently, your warmonger rating goes up regardless.

    Leader warmonger hate variables range from 1 (Monte) to 8 (Ramk), with a mean and median of 5. Including all DLC, the current distribution is really just limited to 4 through 7:

    1: 1 leader
    2: 1
    3: 1
    4: 6
    5: 5
    6: 5
    7: 4
    8: 1

    "Defenders of the Free World" (7 and up): Ramk, Gandhi, Elizabeth, Washington, Kamehameha
    "Do what you like" (3 and under): Montezuma, Alexander, Napoleon

    In any given game, these warmonger hate variables are adjusted up or down by up to 2 points (as are all AI personality variable). Then, the WM score above is compared against a series of thresholds to determine the effect on Civ B's opinion of Civ A.

    Critical: WM score >= 200 --> -100
    Severe: >= 150 --> -70
    Major: >= 100 --> -40
    Minor: >= 50 --> -15

    For reference, a Declaration of Friendship is worth +35, so once you get to Major you will have a very hard time keeping your friends. The "warmongering menace to the world" label will appear for any of the above levels, even Minor. It is not necessarily shown by all leaders who think it, certainly not by deceivers and maybe not by friends.

    So, on average, a typical leader with a WM hate of 5 will just reach Minor if you:

    1) Declare war twice, or
    2) Conquer a CS or civ

    Double either the above actions or do both and you get to Major. You really have to play very very nice to avoid getting this label completely.


    That's what I understand of the current implementation. I really really hope they address this as part of diplo tweaking in a patch soon ... as it is, it's a real pain and WAY to sensitive for even standard size maps.
     
  10. SpearMan153

    SpearMan153 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    379
    Location:
    Maroochydore, Queensland, Australia
    getting your friends to join the war really helps since we now have the "war against common foe" bonus which really helps cancelling out war monger hate for those civs

    also when a civ really hates you they find fault with everything, so they'll tend to call you a warmonger even if you've done very little actual mongering. I suspect the interface doesn't distinguish minor war monger from critical (uses the same text regardless) - I think of it as just name calling

    looking at the numbers it only takes one CS conquest to push you over 50 and into the minor war monger status

    defence pacts shouldn't count - but what can you do

    does taking a major civs capital factor in?
     
  11. jdog5000

    jdog5000 Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,601
    Location:
    California
    No, taking an original capital has no effect. You can game the system by declaring as little as possible, then taking out original capitals and leaving some minor outlying city or doing most of the work and getting an ally to deal the final blow.

    I have managed to game it so that the last two AIs don't consider me more than a minor warmonger even when I've taken out five original capitals. It's cheap, but very effective.
     
  12. civnoob13

    civnoob13 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    713
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Nah, the award the worst negative modifier without a doubt goes to 'they believe you are trying to win the game in a similar way to them, and they don't like it!'

    Completely immersion-breaking, beyond your control, and somehow the AI think they know how you are going to win - 1 before even you do - 2 as soon as they meet you.

    It's a terrible modifier and should be completely taken out of the game.
     
  13. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    Well, it does carry a permanent diplo penalty with that civ (whose capital you took).


    How do you know whether you're considered a minor, critical, etc. warmonger?
     
  14. snarzberry

    snarzberry Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,240
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Thanks for the work, good stuff.

    So you only accrue warmonger hate for DoW's and wiping out a civ/cs completely. This means that if a civ DoWs you, say in an early rush, and you survive and go on to take all of their cities bar one that you will generate zero warmonger hate for all of your gains.
     
  15. MisterBoomBoom

    MisterBoomBoom Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    431
    Do you accrue war mongering points if you are isolated and have not met other civs yet? ie is it safe to take out CS's (or another civ) prior to meeting other civs?
     
  16. Furycrab

    Furycrab Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    815
    It still affects them...

    I'm curious though. I frequently smack a Civ out of existence as part of an early push, and yet afterwards I'm still perfectly fine to RA/Trade with everyone else and they still send me DOFs which I usually accept based on how likely I think these people will be involved in wars (I try not to DOF people with lots of rivals sorta deal)

    I can see how it can stack quickly, but you get no penalty if you got DOWed and kill everything except a single city. You can be seriously aggressive and still keep friends.

    +35 for DOF is the modifier or does it reduce your warmonger status by that much?
     
  17. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,502
    Something I know no one talked about yet is your actual mistake.

    You can fight CSs, even kill them, with less hate against you when they are allied with a Major Civ that is also at war with you. No one will complain. (much. a few high CS lovers will)

    The moment you made peace with alex, and not the CSs, you opened yourself up to being hated by everyone else, as there was no 'reason' for you to be fighting the CSs anymore.
     
  18. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    Wow, thanks so much for sharing this knowledge! Great to know. Do the critical/severe/major/minor distinctions appear at all ingame?


    This makes a lot of sense, actually. There should really be some dialogue that pops up asking "You have made peace with (or eliminated) Alexander. Would you like to make peace with <City-State(s) allied with Alex>?"
     
  19. jdog5000

    jdog5000 Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,601
    Location:
    California
    I know that you can can take out a CS and have no warmonger penalty from Civ X if X has met neither you nor the CS. It's harder to figure out whether you're safe if they know you but not the CS, or know the CS and not you.

    Correct. Being declared on, and then leaving them alive, will leave you with no warmonger penalty.

    True, there is now (new in the June patch) the diplo penalty with the civ whose original capital you took, and if they denounce you (which they will) that can have side effects. But there's no warmonger effect.

    I know the level of warmonger hate by peeking in the diplo AI logs after the game or to see the effects of in game actions. That's part of how I figured this out, filling in the rest by connecting the dots with XML variables and such.

    Each civ has an internal opinion of you which they never tell you that guides their interactions with you. Having a DoF boosts this internal opinion of you by 35 points, while being labeled a Major warmonger drops it by 40 ... so if both are true, then their opinion of you is 5 points lower than before.

    You can read more about opinions and such in the link at the bottom of the FP.

    You're welcome :) It's a confusing system which is why I investigated in the first place.

    There is no visibility of warmonger level in game - you get the same "warmongering menace" message at Minor and at Critical. This is part of the confusion with the system, I think a less intense message for Minor and Major would help (along with other reforms). You can see these things in AI log files if you turn on logging.
     
  20. Blue Oyster

    Blue Oyster Stealth is an Illusion

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    84
    Thanks, Jdog5000!
     

Share This Page