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Awilder's First Deity Game (Frederick/fractal/normal/no events/no huts)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by awilder, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. awilder

    awilder Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Hey again everyone. So after my last 3-4 wins on Immortal (2 online + 1 IU + 1 private) I am feeling pretty confident about my chances on Imm. Time to spice things up a bit with a jump to deity!

    Turns 0-13: Research AH
    Turns 13-53: Nick of time
    Turns 53-68: Teching Writing
    Turns 68-85: Barb Nations Fall
    Turns 85-115: Wanged

    I have never completed a game on deity, win or lose. I tried a couple of silly/experimental openings in the past to get a feel for deity pacing (tried CS slingshot in Hodory's 3 gold Mansa start for example) but never played them out. I also have one Ghandi game where I have taken out one enemy and my chances look good. This was mainly to ensure I have some chance for my first full-game attempt (public or otherwise!)

    Anyway, on to the game. I almost always play random, but this time I chose what I consider a higher-end leader to help ease the deity growing pains:



    Settings will be the usual to start out: Fractal/standard/normal/no huts/no events.

    I regenerated the start until I was
    -not isolated nor semi-isolated (I have no other info beyond that+starting view)
    -not coastal (to awkward opening for first deity go)

    Here is what I came up with:



    Quite good (phew). Some food, some hammers, some commerce. Hammers could be a long term issue if SIP.

    First question: where to move the scout? Have at it!

    I'm really hoping for a lot of advice this game. I will take it slow to give people time to weigh in.

    Please put shadows in spoilers, and don't give advice based on info I don't have, yadda yadda yadda.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    My thoughts so far:
    Short term SIP is great. Long term it looks like hammers could be an issue. I am toying with 1NW which would solve that issue. It would also make my cultural borders butt up against the coast up there which could be good for blocking.

    If that is the plan, I think I want to move my settler Eastward to see what I may lose-I have enough info to know that 1NW is good, so all I want to check is if there are hammers to be had east that I don't know about.
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    hmm interesting...with 3 GH, grass cow, elephants and so many grass tiles for workshops I kind of don't see the 'hammer problem'.

    will be interesting to watch ;-)
     
  4. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Definitely no hammer problem.

    I'd move the scout 2 south to see what's down there. If it's anything good I'd consider settling the ivory.
     
  5. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Commerce looks more shaky than hammers - the ivory is the only one of the good tiles that's riverside. But it looks a solid start anyway. You start with hunting, so are only 1 tech away from having all 3 BFC specials covered. Also it's deity so you will need archery if/when you don't have horse and that's less of a drag starting with hunting.

    2 SE looks a better scout move than 2S which would only reveal the forest we can already see the edges of. 2 SE would stand a chance of revealing something (gold hill or something) that would make settling 1SE attractive.

    Settling on the ivory would get an extra city tile hammer but would mean refusing BFC grass cow :)eek:) and also permanently losing the +1:commerce: from improving it.

    Good luck anyway!
     
  6. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    My idea for NW was 6GH+ivory can be worked along with Pigs+Cows at size 9. That is quite a unit pump, although not good for whipping. Probably better to be more balance for my first deity try.

    I think odds are pretty low settling on ivory is worthwhile. There are 3 unknown tiles I can reveal on turn 0 by moving SSW or SESE (looks better) with the scout, and I would need something like wet corn to make me move (that would even complicate my opening, since I can avoid AG as of now). More to the point, there's only ONE tile I can reveal that wouldn't be in my BFC anyway! I think SESE move makes the most sense just to check. SIP is almost sure to me at this point.
     
  7. Gwaja

    Gwaja King

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    Oooh... it looks like I am not the only one trying out a brand new difficulty level for the 1st time with an online posting. Wish you the best of luck!


    I would jump up and down in joy if a wet corn is in the capital's culture ring. ^_^ One could only hope!
     
  8. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    @Gwaja

    Thanks!

    gonna move SESE now...
     
  9. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    Best of luck on diety awilder, your last 2 write ups were great. Despite having many immortal wins under my belt I've never had a serious go at diety. I like your leader choice for this game, freddy seems like a good leader to make the jump with, it seems to me that it's often beneficial to move up a level with an ORG leader to ease the adjustment in maintenance costs.
     
  10. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    So I move SESE as planned, and see nothing compelling enough to move:



    I suppose one of those riverside plains down there could hold wheat, but it's not worth waiting to find out. I settled in place, and started the opening that makes sense to me: AH + Worker.
     
  11. dragomaster

    dragomaster Warlord

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    SE>SE looks like the best move with scout and i still se it as a risky move to settle on ivory unles you gain river gems, gold or at least a hill and a good food title in BFC. Those hills will be verry nice to have and you may have iron or copper in one of the two hills you'll miss out if settled on ivory plus you will only get one workable mine in cap if settled on ivory if no outher is reviled. you still have four riverside grassland to cottage in the early game if settled in place aswell as three mines and a ivory camp for prod and still having plus one food when working them and food titles, all this make up for a good hybrid cap in my opinion. of the map to judge it looks like you'll have a nice prod city to your north west and a nice cottage city to your south east, judging of hills and river it's a pitty you may need IW to make them good though and the IW situation may make it even more importent to have a hybrid cap IMO.

    Move this scout now so we can see what it will revile.

    edit. ops already posted lol

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I looks good this. yes get AH and worker asap. Just play as normal now and se what kind of terrain the map god has given you. Go weel if horses is reviled closly if not get BW directly your only one tech from Archery so if you miss out of copper and ponys you'll have a short way do defence.
     
  12. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    I think it's pretty clear that AH+worker is the right opening here, so I went ahead and played until AH was in:

    On turn 6, I met my first neighbor:

    Spoiler :


    Gotta read up on this guy. At least it's not Genghis Khan! :goodjob:

    I scouted out further than I usually do, mainly due to interest in this gold+corn site:

    Spoiler :


    Unfortunately it's right by KK's borders. That might not be his cap I guess? He is creative so his second city may have had a border pop already :crazyeye: Probably his cap though, which would mean he is expanding away from me.

    I stopped when AH came in, because now I have to think. Some shots of the land:

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    My thoughts on first settler--on coast between pig+horses. If I get it out there soon enough I think/hope I can skip archery. I am sandwiched between coasts, and KK is very close on the Western side. Also there are many wooded hills to set up shop w/ warriors.

    I would need only TW to get chariots going, so I think I go BW here first? My plan is to get cap to size 2 (working pigs+cows) and then rush then go either settler or worker#2->settler. Need to think about the timing carefully.

    I think I can wait on mysticism, since a border pop in city #2 would only help if I have fishing as well. I will perhaps build a worker there first with the pigs, or perhaps a barracks with the pigs+horses.

    Main question for audience: I can get 1st chariot out probably before turn 50 naturally, or whip one out ~turn 42-45 in an emergency. Is that soon enough?

    Not gonna bother posting a save this early
     
  13. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Go straight for the wheel, Barbs come very fast on Deity, like 2500 BC. Settle on the coast between the pigs and horses like you planned to, that's the best move and get those horses online immediately.

    Don't try to grab that gold from KK, it's too far away, it's take too long to develop, he'll probably settle it before you anyway, and his creative trait will cause border problems.

    KK is a mid-range warmonger. I've seen him get pretty dangerous with enough cities.

    Finish scouting to the north so you can see what you have to work with in your immediate area. Looks like plenty of room to expand so far.

    I'd grow to size 3 working both the pigs and cow and then pump out a settler.
     
  14. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    Some number crunching to see on chariot:

    Spoiler :

    t15 worker in->start warrior+move to pig.
    t16 start pig
    t19 pig improved/ 15 food stored/ 5 hammers in warrior (assuming I work plains cow)
    t20 move to cow and start improving/ 20 food stored/ 7 hammer in warrior
    t22 grow to size 2 w/ 3food overflow (work pig+naked ivory @4food surplus/4hammer per turn)
    end of turn 22 i have 7 food stored+15 hammers in warrior

    t23 warrior done/cows done(work pig+cow @ 7food surplus/4hpt)/14 food stored/4 hammers in warrior 2

    t24 worker move back to pig hill/21 food stored/8hammers in warrior 2

    t25 worker move to ivory/28 food stored/12 hammers in warrior 2

    t26 start improving ivory/grow to size 3 with 4 overflow (working naked ivory/pig hill/plains cow @6 food surplus+6 hpt/ finish warrior#2 w. 3 overflow

    t27 warrior 2 in/start settler (takes 8 turns a few @12 and some @13)
    t29 ivory improved, start road
    t30 road in
    t31 start road 1s
    t32 road done
    t33 start road on horses
    t34 finish road on horses/finish settler
    t35 move to settling spot
    t36 settle+ start horses
    t39 horses in


    can start a chariot on turn 39 w/ two warriors out fogbusting
     
  15. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Barbs usually start heading for your cities by t40. If you can time your production post-horses with some overflow/chop, you should be ok with Chariots. However, if in ~10 turns you meet no AI from the north&east, do re-consider Archers.
     
  16. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    Alternative to above:

    Spoiler :

    t16-19 get oneturn of ivory instead of plains cow in there--> two extra hammers/2 fewer food

    growth stays same

    t25 worker move to forest instead of ivory
    t27 start worker instead of settler
    t28 worker @29 hammers--->29+12production+20chop=61-> 1 overflow
    t29 new worker+old worker move to next forest/start on settler @12 hpt
    t30 chop
    t31 one chop one move
    t32 one chop one move
    t33 two chops-->settler ends turn at 1overflow+12*5+2*20/chop = 101
    t34 road ivory,settler moves 1 away from settling spot
    t35 road 1N of horses, move to settle spot
    t36 settle, road horses.
    t38, horses in


    This way I get an extra worker, and start a chariot on t38 at the cost of a couple of
    food stored and three forests chopped. (I will chop forests to maximize remaining adjacent forests and encourage regrowth :))

    Also I can 1-pop-whip a worker into a chariot on that t38 I think.

    All assuming I did numbers right... EDIT: I need to count commerce too! Can I get both BW and TW by turn 34? :cry:

    Two questions:
    1) Is a t39 chariot + 2 warriors reasonable defense against barbs?
    2) If a river is touching your cultural borders but not in it, can you use it for trade routes/getting resources?
     
  17. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    @AZ

    Thanks for confirming the 3 pop+ settle spot. I will be careful to ensure I only go BW first if it doesn't delay horses. Also agree on the corn+gold; was merely investigating :)

    @kossin

    Good enough for me! Big fan of your work btw :)
     
  18. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    Alright I got some experts weighing in here, which is all I can ask for. I'm going to pull the trigger on the BW first strategy. Checking commerce I will have to reorder some stuff like ivory+horses before roading, but I think t39 chariot should be OK.
     
  19. awilder

    awilder Warlord

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    OK, so I went for the plan laid out above where we start a chariot on ~t38. Things went a little differently than my calculations, basically because BW was not in by the time my plan called for chopping and TW wasn't in by the time my plan called for roading. I shuffled stuff around a bit and didn't fall too far off.

    First off I waited for my worker to arrive and started BW (16 turns). I had the worker improve pig then cows. Meanwhile I meet another neighbor:

    Spoiler :


    He's from the north, so I go ahead with no archery plan (bad idea jeans... see below)

    When the warrior comes, I send him SW to spawnbust my horse spot. No risking dancing around barbs to settle that, since I absolutely need it on schedule.

    Another neighbor

    Spoiler :


    Worker finishes both cows and pigs, and BW still not in. So he goes ahead and starts improving the ivory now. Scraping together commerce will be key here anyway.

    Met another neighbor:

    Spoiler :


    And then foolishly get my scout trapped against the coast!

    Spoiler :


    BW comes in with one turn to spare for the worker to start chopping post ivory. Start research on TW.

    After the second warrior gets finished (whom I send NE to fogbust), and my second worker (which took 5 turns @ 13h+fpt), I start my settler.

    Spoiler :


    One micro thing here: I planned it to get the 8 hammer overflow (by swapping to a forested ph tile from pigs during the warrior earlier) so that the settler could get finished by 8overflow+13/turn*4turns+2chops*20h/chop = 100.

    A couple of turns later while waiting for chops, I notice this land feature:

    Spoiler :


    Peninsula? I don't recall any AI coming from SE, so I want to block that area asap.

    Other things happening of note:

    Spoiler :


    Talk about squeeze! At least he's not creative... The worker highlighted has just finished prechopping a forest that will go into a chariot later. It is about the join the other in starting to road down to city#2, and the settler is moving into position this turn. Question: it seems like a unit only gets the movement bonus from a road if BOTH the tile it's leaving and the one it enters are roaded. Is that correct?

    When I saw cyrus there I made the decision to start another settler immediately after the first. Maybe it should have been another warrior instead. Anyway, I revolt to slavery when TW comes in, and then get horses up asap. Turns out:

    Spoiler :


    Just in time! Lucky on killing that archer (see message at top of screen); didn't hurt my chariot at all! My original plan was to stop here for advice, but at this point it wasn't clear that my capital wasn't about to get horribly razed by barbs. I didn't want to trigger months of heated debate on my next move, create a careful plan, and then lose immediately. So... I played on.

    I had chopped that first chariot out with the prechopped tree, and then I two-pop-whipped the second settler into a second. Streams of barbs kept pouring out of the NE fog (my fogbuster there long since had to retreat) and so I had to whip that second chariot as well:

    Spoiler :


    Sweet. 1 pop capital at turn 49. Part of the problem was sending out the settler to block the peninsula to the east. Anyway, I survived, and the cap has grown back somewhat. I stopped at turn 53 with city #3 settled.

    World pics:
    Spoiler :






    Feel free to debate my settle choice there. I actually didn't notice the barb city there somehow until it was done. Blocking there was not as urgent as I thought, but at least it should be a good early-mid game hammer city, I can maybe culture flip the barbs, and it gives me a conduit to the mysterious peninsula. I am almost sure no one is down there now. I've seen an American scout trapped there, and that's all I've seen apart from barbs.

    So what to do now? Note: I did hit next turn just to make sure Munich survives the archer hit, and it does. I need writing and then sailing probably, but maybe I need pottery before both? Suggestions/orders please! One thing's for sure: high priority to get a chariot going SE to explore.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Looks like the barb city is on a hill and pretty bad, not much to do there besides letting it be and have some units ready later to intercept a takeover from Cyrus.
    I think the flow of barbs will come to a stop soon, none from the N and you just need to light out that peninsula a bit.
    Can fill in a city 2E of the horse, good spot for river cottages which it could give to Berlin later.

    Writing looks best yip, iam not sold on sailing because you can just build a road for trade routes to Cyrus, pottery for the river cottages could be better.
     

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