Aztecs
- Thread starter black213
- Start date
Just a quick one.
Shouldn't they receiveas well as
from kills? I mean, their religion demanded sacrifice, after all.
Would 50% of the unit's strength rewarded in
This have been brought up before. Gazebo went with the golden age from war solution instead.
One problem I see with faith and culture, and religion and culture is that in most of these cases the religion is their culture, or at least all we know about their culture. So should Aztecs get faith instead of culture from their UA? Probably not, as it would be a slight downgrade and it would force you into a religious play-style.
Libermmucist
Chieftain
I can't see how it'd be a downgrade, given how strong faith is.
For example, in the Religion thread a lot of people mentioned picking up Inspiration while no one mentioned picking up Veneration.
I'm not trying to say that faith is a bad yield by any means, but culture is a lot more flexible.
pandasnail
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 543
If the UA Golden Age is only a 10 (marathon) turn mini GA, why does it increase the cost of real Golden Ages? I don't really understand getting shorter GAs to begin with, but its even worse when it makes regular ones impossible.
Sounds like a bug.
phantomaxl1207
King
Oh that reminds me, I played them a long time ago and I remember that you would get Golden Ages from Wars for just having more CState Allies in an otherwise Neutral peace treaty.
City-state peace is not included in peace-talks anymore, so that probably isn't an issue anymore.
phantomaxl1207
King
Is that so. What was the reasoning fo this?
How am I supposed to know that?
Heya. 
First CBP Aztecs game today. A few non-scientific impressions...
The UB is mediocre; first of all, it's a water mill replacement, which ironically is weaker than the well for coming so many techs later. Second, you can only build it in river cities, meaning what... a third of your cities on average? Then compare the effect to Songhai's UB... +1F vs +1C on river tiles, and +2F on lake tiles vs +10% building production. Early game culture is extremely powerful, and I'd take it any day over food on tiles. Additional food on lakes will be amazing in very fringe scenarios - I had one lake tile in my entire 12 cities empire this game! Plus no synergy with the other uniques. I say this with love: it's bad!
The UU and UA are great together! It makes Montezuma extraordinarily powerful early game. I started in a relatively forested area, therefore I chose to skip scout and built a few Jaguars instead. With Authority, the healing on kill -roughly half a jaguar's health- meant my units never had to rest and gained 4 yields (C S F G) per kill, which was massive. I spread my units and stole all the barbarian camps, plus declared war on Japan very early (he settled his second city right by my capital, about 20 tiles away from his! Utterly indefensible. Foolish man) and fed on his units, meaning I was tech, culture and faith leader for all the early game. The gold on kill, in particular, was quite welcome, considering how managing reserves while early warring is extremely difficult and forces you to stay low on units. No such issue with the Aztecs! Very easy pantheon & religion too. I made use of the high production from Authority and the peace deal Golden Ages to snag a few wonders.
In the end, of the five civs on my continent, I conquered two (Japan & Polynesia) and vassaled one (Babylon). Left Germany alive for research agreements.
The civilization falls apart mid-late game, as -I assume- it is designed to. The gold & faith on kill is irrelevant when you produce hundreds of them per turn. You can't start wars you're uncertain of winning anymore, otherwise everyone will hate you, refuse to trade & enact research agreements and so on. So you don't have an UA for the later half of the game, sort of. Jaguars don't appear to obsolete and keep their heal + woodsman on upgrade, but it's a pain to upgrade them multiple times... plus all combat is done through naval units and artillery late game.
It plays very similarly to the Celts imo. Make use of fantastic early bonuses to leverage your empire and turn to opportunism later on, only being offensive when really advantageous. I went for piety but aesthetics into a tourism victory would have been better imo. I -unfortunately- had to conquer a few cities state during my warmongering, so diplomatic victory was out of the picture, and it'd be very difficult to compete for a science victory with strong late-game civs.
It was very fun for the first half of the game, I must say.
First CBP Aztecs game today. A few non-scientific impressions...
The UB is mediocre; first of all, it's a water mill replacement, which ironically is weaker than the well for coming so many techs later. Second, you can only build it in river cities, meaning what... a third of your cities on average? Then compare the effect to Songhai's UB... +1F vs +1C on river tiles, and +2F on lake tiles vs +10% building production. Early game culture is extremely powerful, and I'd take it any day over food on tiles. Additional food on lakes will be amazing in very fringe scenarios - I had one lake tile in my entire 12 cities empire this game! Plus no synergy with the other uniques. I say this with love: it's bad!
The UU and UA are great together! It makes Montezuma extraordinarily powerful early game. I started in a relatively forested area, therefore I chose to skip scout and built a few Jaguars instead. With Authority, the healing on kill -roughly half a jaguar's health- meant my units never had to rest and gained 4 yields (C S F G) per kill, which was massive. I spread my units and stole all the barbarian camps, plus declared war on Japan very early (he settled his second city right by my capital, about 20 tiles away from his! Utterly indefensible. Foolish man) and fed on his units, meaning I was tech, culture and faith leader for all the early game. The gold on kill, in particular, was quite welcome, considering how managing reserves while early warring is extremely difficult and forces you to stay low on units. No such issue with the Aztecs! Very easy pantheon & religion too. I made use of the high production from Authority and the peace deal Golden Ages to snag a few wonders.
In the end, of the five civs on my continent, I conquered two (Japan & Polynesia) and vassaled one (Babylon). Left Germany alive for research agreements.
The civilization falls apart mid-late game, as -I assume- it is designed to. The gold & faith on kill is irrelevant when you produce hundreds of them per turn. You can't start wars you're uncertain of winning anymore, otherwise everyone will hate you, refuse to trade & enact research agreements and so on. So you don't have an UA for the later half of the game, sort of. Jaguars don't appear to obsolete and keep their heal + woodsman on upgrade, but it's a pain to upgrade them multiple times... plus all combat is done through naval units and artillery late game.
It plays very similarly to the Celts imo. Make use of fantastic early bonuses to leverage your empire and turn to opportunism later on, only being offensive when really advantageous. I went for piety but aesthetics into a tourism victory would have been better imo. I -unfortunately- had to conquer a few cities state during my warmongering, so diplomatic victory was out of the picture, and it'd be very difficult to compete for a science victory with strong late-game civs.
It was very fun for the first half of the game, I must say.
You can actually build the Floating Garden in any city (river or non-river) the only requirement is that you haven't already built a well. Fair to say that the aztecs should probably never build wells, and it would probably be better if their ability to build wells was removed. I've seen the AI accidentally building a well once or twice, blocking their ability to build the FGarden after, but even if the AI is smarter now it seems like a stupid trap to leave for them (or newer players).Heya.
First CBP Aztecs game today. A few non-scientific impressions...
The UB is mediocre; first of all, it's a water mill replacement, which ironically is weaker than the well for coming so many techs later. Second, you can only build it in river cities, meaning what... a third of your cities on average? Then compare the effect to Songhai's UB... +1F vs +1C on river tiles, and +2F on lake tiles vs +10% building production. Early game culture is extremely powerful, and I'd take it any day over food on tiles. Additional food on lakes will be amazing in very fringe scenarios - I had one lake tile in my entire 12 cities empire this game! Plus no synergy with the other uniques. I say this with love: it's bad!
That being said I completely agree with you about how underwhelming the building still is. You get a couple of extra points of food and if you're not on a river you get slightly better yields than you would from a well (but not settling by a river in the first place isn't exactly optimal). This building used to be crazy good in vanilla, then after the CBP rework it was still pretty decent, now after the science-changes and general growthnerfs the building feels like a bottom-tier UB.
I personally really don't like the degree to which the Civ really falls apart in the mid-game, even when the yields from your UA(or at least from the authority opener) are still fairly strong you just don't have the ability to keep waging war.
Aztecs are strong when the Jaguar is relevant (pre bronzeworking) still decent before the Jaguar goes obsolete (before steel) and really weak once the Jaguar goes obsolete(steel).
It feels somewhat like a design-flaw that they are rewarded for winning wars but don't actually have bonuses that help them win wars. It also doesn't really help how quickly both faith and gold value starts falling.
Ah! good to know. Realistically, I'd build the well most of the time anyway. The Floating Garden comes on too late for only +1P/F without a river. (Exception if you have multiple odd river tiles in city range.)
Bah, we mustn't have the same play style. I love to early war, and do it quite often (when the terrain allows it). Getting additional rewards for it is nice, for a change!
If not for the UA's faith, it'd be nigh impossible to go full warmongering AND found a religion too. Religion helps scaling into the second half of the game a lot.
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I must add, the civ doesn't necessarily need a buff imo. It's still competitive, and performs well in AI hands. I've noticed a significant power creep lately, and at some point we'll have to accept that some civs will be weaker than others in most scenarios. If the UB gets buffed something else should get nerfed imo.
Though that's all G's prerogative, of course.
Actually I think the well have a worse per citizen scaling than a watermill (and the FGarden uses the watermill stats) so it is something anyways.
I didn't explain myself properly. I meant after the Jag goes obsolete.Bah, we mustn't have the same play style. I love to early war, and do it quite often (when the terrain allows it). Getting additional rewards for it is nice, for a change!
However I have to admit that I'm really not a fan of having to go to war pre-catapults every game as Aztecs, feels kinda limiting.
A shrine in the capital, grab God of Commerce and you're pretty much set.
I'm not saying that the Faith is a bad yield, but Faith as a yield famously falls off heavily as soon as you found your religion. Gold also falls off quite a bit once you get access to trade-routes. And even before this the gold/faith gained per kill isn't exactly amazing, you're at most getting a turns worth of faith from a kill, which doesn't sounds that bad, but with the AI being smarter about managing their units you generally kill a lot less of them these days.
Who cares? I just find a lackey opponent and keep declaring war on him, camping his Capital, and forcing him to peace me out. Golden Age times infinity when you have 2 people you can do this to.
Aldebaran1997
Prince
On easy difficulties. It's really hard to keep warring with more than two major civ on harder difficulties, and it is too hard to win wars vs. direct-war benefit civs.(ex. Zulu, Japan, ...) If you can win wars easily, it's good, of course, but not quite rational stance.
Stangle Khan
Warlord
For such a warmongering civ, I have to agree with Funak that they have very little in the way of ability to do so.
Jaguar + Authority is great but after that they peter out. Only so much of your army is going to be from Jaguars so you end up with 4-5 units with the promotions and hope to Quetzalcoatl that they don't die.
The the golden age portion of the UA is good but not great. The rest is meh at best. It helps early game but like others have said it falls off horribly.
The UB is horribly pathetic compared to the Tabya, the other UB with similar mechanics. Tabya can give me +10 culture early game and send me on the fast-track to Policyville. The Floating Gardens send me on the slightly faster track to a decent sized city. The problem is that food is entirely negligible once you get Civil Service. The culture from the Tabya is important through the whole game, not even considering how ridiculously better +10% production of buildings is that a couple of food on rare lake tiles.
Maybe +1 production per river tile might work better, turn the Aztecs into a production powerhouse that can churn out lots of units to take advantage of their UA.
Jaguar + Authority is great but after that they peter out. Only so much of your army is going to be from Jaguars so you end up with 4-5 units with the promotions and hope to Quetzalcoatl that they don't die.
The the golden age portion of the UA is good but not great. The rest is meh at best. It helps early game but like others have said it falls off horribly.
The UB is horribly pathetic compared to the Tabya, the other UB with similar mechanics. Tabya can give me +10 culture early game and send me on the fast-track to Policyville. The Floating Gardens send me on the slightly faster track to a decent sized city. The problem is that food is entirely negligible once you get Civil Service. The culture from the Tabya is important through the whole game, not even considering how ridiculously better +10% production of buildings is that a couple of food on rare lake tiles.
Maybe +1 production per river tile might work better, turn the Aztecs into a production powerhouse that can churn out lots of units to take advantage of their UA.
You could do a few minor things with the UB to make it more bearable, change it to a well replacement (cheaper and earlier), make it provide food on all freshwater tiles (makes lakes more powerful, makes oasis decent) but even with that you're still stuck with a civ that has no real victory-condition. Even if you severely buff the UB I don't think you're going to get into a position where it can carry you so I think you really need to do something about the UA, give it some sort of lasting effect.
Aldebaran1997
Prince
I think Azteca UA insta entering GA replace with permanent happiness bonus. Even though CBO science system makes FG bad, it's still good at pumping pops.(If Funak's more food buff idea adopted, it's great at it) Just pumping pops has almost no benefit, but places them on CBO's specialists, it's able to get quite high yield. But more pops and specialists mean more unhappiness, so UA or UB need to generate happiness for countervailing.(Happiness also help to achieve cultural victory and couquer victory)
That wouldn't change much.
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