[NFP] Babylon First Look

[Revanchist]

I covered this in my youtube video, but the water mill is just disappointing. What makes it a Babylonian water mill? How does it have anything to do with the rest of the abilities?

 

[Zaarin]

Well, the design problem with the very early civilizations like Sumeria or Babylon is that there's not a lot of history to draw from; they were only around for about 1 tier of the tech tree. And they were kind of the only game in town as far as "civilization" goes in their own eras, so they were essentially best at nearly everything, compared to their contemporaries. So in game turns, you kind of have to make stuff up.

As someone whose particular interest is in that period of history (I even considered majoring in Assyriology or Near Eastern studies and occasionally regret not doing so), I have to disagree with all of your points here except the one about the tech tree--which is a problem with the tech tree. Both the Sumerians and Babylonians were excellent record keepers, and archaeology in the region has been extensive. We know a great deal about both Sumer and Babylon. They also weren't the only game in town: they were surrounded by other civilizations like Egypt, the Hittites, the Aramaic kingdoms, the Canaanites/Phoenicians, the Mitanni, the Hurrians, the Urartians, the Elamites, the Medes, the Persians, etc. Mesopotamia may have traded as far afield as Ethiopia and India. Popular awareness of these cultures may be very limited, but available information is not.

 

[agonistes]

So when does Babylon drop?

 

[bengalryan9]

Babylon's culture progression will be definitely falling behind compare to science.

Maybe, but I see myself focusing on early theater squares, entertainment complexes, holy sites and monuments where I would've built campuses first in the past. I think I may go for a cultural victory the first time I play them. I'll use Eurekas to keep on/ahead of the science pace, focus on building a strong culture, horde all the GWAMs, and by the time the Eurekas start getting harder and harder to take advantage of I'll be focused entirely on tourism. I think that will make for a fun game.

 

[AriochIV]

As someone whose particular interest is in that period of history (I even considered majoring in Assyriology or Near Eastern studies and occasionally regret not doing so), I have to disagree with all of your points here except the one about the tech tree--which is a problem with the tech tree. Both the Sumerians and Babylonians were excellent record keepers, and archaeology in the region has been extensive. We know a great deal about both Sumer and Babylon. They also weren't the only game in town: they were surrounded by other civilizations like Egypt, the Hittites, the Aramaic kingdoms, the Canaanites/Phoenicians, the Mitanni, the Hurrians, the Urartians, the Elamites, the Medes, the Persians, etc. Mesopotamia may have traded as far afield as Ethiopia and India. Popular awareness of these cultures may be very limited, but available information is not.

I mean "history" in terms of gameplay; when I say "not a lot of history" I mean not many turns in Civilization. In Civilization game terms, Sumerian history is a blip in that first part of the game that goes by too quickly (in my opinion). And when the Sumerians founded the first city in the world, they were the only game in town when it came to city building.

 

[Leucarum]

Disagree on both points. Neither of those limitations really sounds fun at all, especially the latter.

Each to their own I guess. I think a few restrictions would have made it more of an interesting challenge to work around.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean "history" in terms of gameplay; when I say "not a lot of history" I mean not many turns in Civilization. In Civilization game terms, Sumerian history is a blip in that first part of the game that goes by too quickly (in my opinion). And when the Sumerians founded the first city in the world, they were the only game in town when it came to city building.

Ah, yeah, we're on the same page then. The early ages could really use some fleshing out.

Each to their own I guess. I think a few restrictions would have made it more of an interesting challenge to work around.

If you're going to make a civ out of a gimmick, might as well lean into the gimmick.

 

[Sostratus]

This is probably the best take on a science civ they can do- we would tire of seeing more yield monsters that get beakers dumped on them.
It will at least play very differently.

The UU is interesting - a fast scout warrior that holds up to cav like a spearman.

That watermill is so beastly though. Holy cow. Then Build 3 mines, build 6 farms, watermill, turbo yields for days. There are so many crazy eureka chains available especially in the first half of the game.

The downside of course, is they get nothing in the civics department, and half your science comes from cards. There is a ton of cross-talk between civics and techs when it comes to eurekas.

 

[DanQuayle]

Why would you ever build a campus with this guy (beyond 1 for the GL), you'll still own 30 by the end of the game. This fact alone is huge.

I would build 2 for the Recorded History inspiration But I agree with your point.

Kill 3 barbs to find Iron, have a builder ready... bosh, early swords.
.etting muskets - Build a quarry ... bosh Masonry - Build a wall... bosh Engineering - Build an aqueduct ... bosh Military Engineering ... kill 3 barbs for an encampment and with a military engineering armoury you are at muskets.... Quite do-able. Then kill a unit with muskets to get Frigates. Sweet Jesus.

Do they not know how eureka aware we are?

The only way I could see it become "balanced" is if
1. There is an additional game mode planned for later that adds/randomizes eurekas (ala Real Eureka) (reducing your probability of unlocking eurekas)
or
2. The eureka boost is later nerfed (like Gran Columbia) to 90-99% as someone else suggested (forcing you to at least research prerequisite techs)

 

[Isengardtom]

Hammurabi: *builds Builder, Builder constructs a Horse pasture*

The game: Welcome to the Classical Era!

Ancient era ends in 10 turns
Era score = 0

NOOOOOOOO

 

[8housesofelixir]

Ancient era ends in 10 turns
Era score = 0
NOOOOOOOO

Lady Six Sky, when having Hammurabi in her game: oh no.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I don't so much think it's a binary choice... As examples this would still be a fun ability if you needed to hit all prerequisites first, or if it only triggered if you were the first to get an eureka.

It could turn out not to be as problematic as my first impressions, the -50% malus is big, but so far it's a bit of a let down for me.

Ask yourself, how often do you trigger eurekas only when you have the prerequisites of that tech? Or is it just muscle memory at this point that you know doing a certain thing will trigger a eureka? Requiring all prerequisites just sucks the fun out of the game cuz you'd never check if you have all the prerequisites, especially for techs where eurekas can be triggered long before their actual eras, like Mass Production, for example.

 

[leandrombraz]

and half your science comes from cards

One advantage is that Babylon doesn't always need that science. You only need to adopt science policies when you are researching a tech that you won't be able to get the eureka of it. If every tech available to research are techs you're sure you'll get the eureka, you can just use the slots for something else. For Babylon, science per turn doesn't need to be a constant.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Hammurabi: *builds Builder, Builder constructs a Horse pasture*

The game: Welcome to the Classical Era!

Turn 1 - starting warrior enters hut, builder is popped in capital
Turn 2 - Builder constructs a Horse pasture - "Welcome to the Classical Era!"

 

[Alexadamz]

One advantage is that Babylon doesn't always need that science. You only need to adopt science policies when you are researching a tech that you won't be able to get the eureka of it. If every tech available to research are techs you're sure you'll get the eureka, you can just use the slots for something else. For Babylon, science per turn doesn't need to be a constant.

And that makes the LUA even less historical accurate. Why not make him the Lawgiver and his LUA let Policy Cards be exchangeable everytime, for free? It would be more interesting than this build a district gain a the free t1 building. With the free eurekas, with a possible real early Apprenticeship, mines would provide enough production to those buildings.

 

[kaspergm]

And they're penalized less for putting campuses in terrible locations.

Isn't that sort of a thing of the past? In my last game, Kongo put down two +4 campuses very early, but maybe that was just a fluke.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Initial thoughts are it's very interesting but not necessarily how I pictured them at all. Pardon me if it's been answered already but I'm posting this before I've gone through and read the other 10 pages.

Eurekas that turn into free techs are cool but I wonder if there's anything historical based about them losing science. Honestly it would be more interesting when you lose science they gain culture in the process, though that might not be balanced.

I'm still not overly impressed with the water mill replacement, but oh well. I still think a library would have been nicer.

The UU feels like they decided to make an all in one ancient era super unit that's not ranged. I like it. Do we know what tech it comes at or is it available from the start? I would guess Bronzeworking maybe.

Also I guess Hammurabi doesn't get a government bonus at all? Unless the free envoys count but that is more city-state related.

 

[Zaarin]

I wonder if there's anything historical based about them losing science.

As I've complained a couple times in this thread, there's really not a lot that's very Babylonian in this incarnation of Babylon. I would really have preferred to have had a cultural Assyria over this.

 

[Uberfrog]

Eurekas that turn into free techs are cool but I wonder if there's anything historical based about them losing science. Honestly it would be more interesting when you lose science they gain culture in the process, though that might not be balanced.

The malus to science is simply a counterweight to their insane science bonus from the eurekas. No basis needed.

I think the eureka boost (as well as being an interesting twist on gameplay) is inspired by the fact the Babylonians are often (whether correctly or not) considered “first” at lots of early scientific discoveries.

 

[Zaarin]

I think the eureka boost (as well as being an interesting twist on gameplay) is inspired by the fact the Babylonians are often (whether correctly or not) considered “first” at lots of early scientific discoveries.

Wasn't that supposed to be Sumer's shtick? Babylonian math and science (especially astronomy--eventually Babylon really deserved an Observatory unique infrastructure) was very advanced as well; that's where most "Greek" math and science come from. But "they did it first" is definitely more associated with Sumer.