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[NFP] Babylon First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Jul 28, 2009
    I don't think that's necessary or as big a deal as you're suggesting.

    The savings on the later techs more than makes up for the effective double cost of the first 3 techs. For example, Animal Husbandry costs 25 or effectively 50 science. Archery costs 50 base and for everyone who gets a eureka, it costs 30, but if Babylon gets the eureka it's free for an effective savings of 30 science. Likewise horseback riding costs 120 (72 with eureka) so for Babylon it's a savings of 72 science....

    On that one path alone Babylon has saved 102 science so at worst it is a minor inconvenience of not being able to make mines or reveal and pasture horses quite as quickly, but almost immediately made up for several times over.
  2. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

    Feb 23, 2018
    Plus why would you research pottery, when you can already make farms and get irrigation free?
    Knightfall likes this.
  3. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

    Apr 18, 2020
    Don't know if anyone has commented it yet, but a thought just crossed my mind: Babylon really doesn't want to spawn in an isolated spot.

    As y'all have noted, Great Scientists are a key part of Babylon's strategy; but if you don't meet another Civ in the early game, that means you won't get the Eureka for Writing and, as a result, will have to hard research Pottery and Writing in order to unlock Campuses. By the time you've achieved that with your -50% malus (I don't know the maths, but I guess it will take, what, twenty or so turns to unlock Writing?), I bet the deity AI will have two or maybe even three Campuses down and will be earning all the Great Scientist points. (Same point applies for if you want a religion but find no natural wonders).

    Of course, the flip-side of this is that if you meet another AI on turn 5, you can immediately build your Campus and start earning Great Scientist points. So yeah: Babylon really wants a close neighbour, and wants to meet them ASAP.
    Mount Suribachi and Knightfall like this.
  4. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    May 8, 2007
    Babylon seems likely to fall in "the too much to do and so few time" trap. As commented this is no begginer civ.

    You want builders to get improvement eurekas. You want scouts to find neighbour civs (or the occasional eureka goody hut). You want military units, including a slinger to kill barbs...
    Bablylon openings may be worth a strategy thread on its own.
  5. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Oct 10, 2008
    Yeah, they're even more constrained early on than others, since, as mentioned, there's more chances to snowball out of control.

    Take an average, random start. If a normal civ takes 8 turns to research their first tech, Babylon will take 16. So you can easily get a scout and/or slinger before even worrying about getting a builder.

    However, if you start coastal, then you get fishing on turn 1, meaning that you could potentially start with a builder, and by turn 10 or 15, before even having finished AH or Mining, potentially even have Celestial Navigation and could build a Harbor! Or if you have a farmable resource, farm it and then move to your plantation resource and pop that one down. Or do you save those builder charges for the mines and quarries you will need?

    Or if you start with a scout and find another civ on turn 5, now you can place that first campus. I mean, I am going to want to rush that ASAP to get started on those scientists. But do you try to get that before even building your first settler? To get your science back up to a normal level plus start the chain of scientists might be huge. You could in theory have completed your campus by turn 15 or 20, and get your first great scientist by turn 50 or so.

    But overall, it will depend so much on your terrain and layout. If you don't find a civ nearby, it will take forever to get Writing. If you don't have a farmable resource, then you're not getting irrigation early. And obviously you want to go kill all the barbarians, since you could in theory chain some techs together, maybe even unlocking Iron Working the turn after you discover mining. Or just having your scout pop a random eureka from a hut suddenly completing changing the game around for you.
  6. Banazir864

    Banazir864 Warlord

    Dec 3, 2016
    The problem there is that “Buy this underpowered civ (that we might buff later)!” doesn’t sell nearly as well as “Buy this overpowered civ (that we might nerf later)!” That’s why power creep exists in the first place, after all.
  7. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

    Oct 18, 2015
    Yep, the only civ where can you unlock Cavalry before Coursers.
  8. Knightfall

    Knightfall Warlord

    Jul 27, 2017
    United States
    Babylon is definitely going to be strong in science, but am I the only one who thinks it could also work as a generalist "balance of power" civ as well? The Eureka bonuses can allow it to "play the field" and follow whatever path its techs take it in, and its other ability gives bonuses to any specialty district.
  9. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

    Aug 16, 2018
    I agree that they are more generalist than other civs. I would say they are most suited for Dom, but they can probably pull off the other victories just fine.

    Science: chase every single eureka you can get, pop as many eureka Great Scientists as possible.

    Dom: just by virtue of unlocking units two eras early, as long as you can build them, you'll be far ahead of your rivals

    Religion: Not terribly strong at this, but have the potential for one of the easiest civs to grab religion with. Discover a natural wonder ASAP and get astrology (holy sites). Build your holy site and you get a free shrine. That's just extra faith and you got +2 Great Prophet points just from that.

    Culture: Techs via eurekas means you don't have to build campuses, so build theatre squares instead. Plus Divine Spark is a great pantheon for them.

    Diplo: free envoys from non-speciality districts. They can rush apprenticeship to make building diplo wonders easier. A good victory type for a generalist civ.
  10. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

    Dec 21, 2018
    And thus the vicious circle is complete...
  11. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

    Jul 15, 2020
    Agree with the generalist argument, although I would say Domination isn't really an optional path for the Babylon. A Domination game is always money-draining, while Babylon can be bottled by the high maintenance cost of the advanced units as well.
    Knightfall and King Rad like this.
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Oct 10, 2008
    The domination beelines are stronger than others, though. Like, in theory they could get bombards in the classical era (2 crossbows plus an aqueduct to unlock niter). Or build an armory and they can start getting field cannons with just a couple forts. Or a navel map they can easily get caravels faster than anyone else. Heck, with a single aqueduct, that unlocks niter, and mining it will give them Rangers super early. Yeah, it's going to be super expensive. But if everyone else is only barely getting crossbows, you probably only need one or maybe 2 Rangers or Cavalry or whatever to just destroy an opponent.

    But it is going to be a civ that needs careful planning. I think their best bet will be to rush ASAP to the 50% gold discount on upgrades, since dropping that upgrade from a scout to a Ranger from 1000 gold down to like 500 is going to make it a lot easier to field them. Which, again, is going to be their challenge - they need a lot of gold, they need a lot of culture, but they can't completely ignore science either since there's a few big eurekas there, and they still will need to research a lot manually.
  13. Knightfall

    Knightfall Warlord

    Jul 27, 2017
    United States
    I think the Babylonian bonuses will mostly be useful for Science and Domination. Science is obvious, and Domination they get (potentially) faster access to advanced units and a free Barracks. The other victory types don't benefit from much except the free district building, as the action with them mostly occurs on the Cultural side, where Babylon has no bonus.
  14. AsH2

    AsH2 Prince

    Aug 2, 2002
    Spoiler :
    # Technologies Eureka! Era Classification
    1 Pottery - Ancient -
    2 Animal Husbandry - Ancient -
    3 Mining - Ancient -
    4 Sailing Found a city on the Coast. Ancient Settler
    5 Astrology Find a natural wonder. Ancient Exploration
    6 Irrigation Farm a ressource. Ancient Builder
    7 Writing Meet another civilization. Ancient Exploration
    8 Archery Kill a unit with a Slinger. Ancient Combat
    9 Masonry Build a Quarry. Ancient Builder
    10 Bronze working Kill 3 Barbarians. Ancient Combat
    11 Wheel Mine a ressource. Ancient Builder
    12 Celestial navigation Improve 2 sea ressources. Classical Builder
    13 Currency Make a Trade Route. Classical Diplomacy
    14 Horseback riding Build a Pasture. Classical Builder
    15 Iron working Build an Iron Mine. Classical Builder
    16 Shipbuilding Own 2 Galleys. Classical Training
    17 Mathematics Build 3 different specialty districts. Classical District
    18 Constrution Build a Water Mill. Classical Production
    19 Engineering Build Ancient Walls. Classical Production
    20 Buttress Build a Classical era or later wonder. Medieval Wonder
    21 Military tactics Kill a unit with a Spearman. Medieval Combat
    22 Apprenticeship Build 3 Mines. Medieval Builder
    23 Machinery Own 3 Archers. Medieval Training
    24 Education Earn a Great Scientist. Medieval Great People
    25 Stirrups Have the Feudalism civic. Medieval Civic
    26 Military engineering Build an Aqueduct. Medieval District
    27 Castles Adopt a government with 6 inherent policy slots. Medieval Government
    28 Cartography Build 2 Harbors. Renaissance District
    29 Mass production Build a Lumber Mill. Renaissance Builder
    30 Banking Have the Guilds civic. Renaissance Civic
    31 Gunpowder Build an Armory. Renaissance District
    32 Printing Build 2 Universities. Renaissance District
    33 Square Rigging Kill a unit with a Musketman. Renaissance Combat
    34 Astronomy Build a University adjacent to a Moutain. Renaissance District
    35 Metal Casting Own 2 Crossbowman. Renaissance Training
    36 Siege Tactics Own 2 Bombards. Renaissance Training
    37 Industrialization Build Workshops. Industrial District
    38 Scientific theory Have the Enlightenment civic. Industrial Civic
    39 Ballistics Have 2 Forts in your territory. Both constructed by a Military Engineer. Industrial Military engineer
    40 Military science Kill a unit with a Knight. Industrial Combat
    41 Steam power Build 2 Shipyards. Industrial District
    42 Sanitation Build 2 Neighborhoods. Industrial District
    43 Economics Build 2 Banks. Industrial District
    44 Rifling Build a Niter Mine Industrial Builder
    45 Flight Build an Industrial era or later wonder. Modern Wonder
    46 Replaceable parts Own 3 Musketman. Modern Training
    47 Steel Build a Coal Mine and an Ironclad. Modern Builder / Training
    48 Refining Build 2 Coal Power Plants. Modern District
    49 Electricity Own 3 Privateers. Modern Training
    50 Radio Build a National Park. Modern Civic
    51 Chemisty Have a level 2 Alliance. Modern Diplomacy
    52 Combustion Extract an Artifact. Modern Civic
    53 Advanced flight Build 3 Biplanes. Atomic Training
    54 Rocketry Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. Atomic Luck
    55 Advanced ballistics Build 2 Oil Power Plants. Atomic District
    56 Combined arms Have 3 Armies or Armadas. Atomic Training
    57 Plastics Build an Oil Well. Atomic Builder
    58 Computers Adopt a government with 8 inherent policy slots. Atomic Government
    59 Nuclear fission Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. Atomic Luck
    60 Synthetic materials Build 2 Aerodromes Atomic District
    61 Telecommunications Build 2 Broadcast Centers Information District
    62 Satellites Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. / Sky and Stars (Information Dedication) Information Luck / Dedication
    63 Guidance systems Kill a Fighter. Information Combat
    64 Lasers Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. Information Luck
    65 Composites Own 3 Tanks. Information Training
    66 Stealth technology Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. Information Luck
    67 Robotics Have the Globalization civic. Information Civic
    68 Nuclear fusion Boost through Great Scientist or Spy. / Sky and Stars (Information Dedication) Information Luck / Dedication
    69 Nanotechnology Build an Aluminum Mine. / Sky and Stars (Information Dedication) Information Builder / Dedication
    70 Advanced AI Boost through Spy. Future Luck
    71 Advanced Power Cells Boost through Spy. Future Luck
    72 Cybernetics Boost through Spy. Future Luck
    73 Offworld Mission Boost through Spy. / Sky and Stars (Future Dedication) Future Luck / Dedication
    74 Predictive systems Boost through Spy. / Sky and Stars (Future Dedication) Future Luck / Dedication
    75 Seasteads Boost through Spy. Future Luck
    76 Smart materials Boost through Spy. / Sky and Stars (Future Dedication) Future Luck / Dedication
  15. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Nov 20, 2011
    I find this a really interesting design, even though I don't really like playing to eurekas (I do however like collecting Great Scientists). Even if it ultimately doesn't particularly suit my playstyle or feel especially Babylonian, finally having a civ whose strategy revolves around one exploiting of Civ VI's signature mechanics (rather than just incidentally benefitting from it like China) is exactly the sort of design space the New Frontier pass can usefully fill.

    Eurekas are easiest to obtain in the early game which can make an early science rush pretty good, but at the cost of progressing pretty slowly from there a lot of the time. The free buildings are a nice touch, and will be especially good with commercial districts and harbors.

    Cyrus, maybe?
    Knightfall likes this.
  16. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

    Dec 27, 2001
    142 E 42 S
    I've already set up a game configuration in anticipation of the release of Babylon. I have chosen a bunch of civs from the same geographical area as my competitors.
    Playing as Babylon with a randomised tech tree would be an interesting proposal too.
    Knightfall and 8housesofelixir like this.
  17. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

    Jan 5, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Almost wish randomized tech trees came with an extra randomized eureka option.

    You know building that first mine will get you an era-appropriate tech, but what? For you to find out!
    Knightfall and Fluphen Azine like this.
  18. Mount Suribachi

    Mount Suribachi Warlord

    Jul 12, 2014
    You're also going to need to spawn near to a natural wonder to boost Astrology if you want a religion (I do, I'm going to go for diplomatic victory). Unfortunately, in the unmodded game they're as rare as hens teeth. And Murphy's Law states that when you *do* spawn next to a natural wonder, you also spawn next to the Ottomans and Teddy.

    This playthrough may take a couple of restarts....
    Knightfall likes this.
  19. borad

    borad Warlord

    Nov 14, 2008
    I’m a bit thick… does “boost via spy” mean “steal via spy”?
    Knightfall and Kmart_Elvis like this.
  20. Kibikus

    Kibikus Warlord

    Jan 18, 2019
    An interesting question is going to be whether you could continue researching techs that are after the Eurekas on the tech tree, as long as you have unlocked all prerequisites of course. It might have been discussed already, in that case, I've missed it.

    It would be easier to use a picture to show what I mean. Ignore that fact that it's an old version of the tech tree, I'm just using it for illustration purposes:
    Spoiler Tech tree :

    If that was the case, then maybe Babylon wouldn't be so bad at a Science victory. You could skip parts of the tech tree, and focus on those techs that are relevant for your victory condition.

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