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[NFP] Babylon First Look

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    I'm not sure you're in the minority...

    There appears to have been a range of reactions to each of the NFP. This is the first one I've been wholly negative to and I think plenty of people have had their standouts and bombs over the series... but power creep has been a growing (creeping?) theme of concern from lots of people.
     
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  2. tedhebert

    tedhebert Emperor

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    So... game's not over yet, cause I only play 5-6 hours a day and it's huge map ;-) but seriously; Immortal game, shuffle, heroes and secret societies.

    I'm at modern era

    Since I was alone on my island I was unable in any ways to use what I consider to be Babylon's main advantage, which is military aggressiveness with a few unit that are a few era in advance. By the time shuffle and map generation allowed me to get my
    military units in the water, all three of my nearest neighbors (and NOT near, closest about 20 tiles away from my closest city) already had walls and I didn't feel like goin after them

    SO; instead I played a game I'd usually like to play, which is being alone, unbothered in my little corner of the world. Managed to install 9 nice cities on my personal Island. Then later on, 2 more on a small island close by.

    First of all, I can attest that I had absolutely no trouble keeping up on the science front, even with only 2 campuses. At turn 184 now, Game in in industrial era, but most contenders are really in modern. And I'm standing 1st place with 45 techs, most others leaders are in the 39-41 range.
    they are around 200 science/turn, while I'm at only 87 ;-) So... this is possible. Now, I KNOW that I'm now entering in the portion of the tech tree where there's a lot of 'Boost through great scientist or spy' techs, so I guess we'll see if spies can be used to get those, because researching
    them myself will be hurtful ;-)

    What all that as allowed me to do is get everything else that I don't usually have the capacity to prioritize; Lots of early Theatre Squares; creating my own faith economy instead of conquering it; And going for at least one of every district possible, which I never do.

    Having the faith economy allowed me to avoid investing production on units after the initial rounds and buying them instead using Grand Master Chapel.

    All in all, I'm top three in all aspects of the game so far, so this makes for a really do it all civ. I usually have the strategy of trying to go with the civ I'm playing's strengths and the map generation until about this time in the game (around turn 150) and then just choose the
    victory condition that makes sense with the game I'm playing. I don't usually still have all 5 open when I chose, and I do this time around.

    Still I don't think the civ itself is totally OP. It's complicated to play, especially on shuffle mode. I'm not very into knowing by heart every single detail of the tech and civic tree, so thanks to whoever dropped the tech list in this thread earlier on, was a life saver ;-) Playing this civ demands a lot
    of effort and thinking, so for me, at least, it's a total success; Love it when my game routine is completely brushed away ;-)

    As for Heroes, I find them quite fun. Got Anansi, Hippolyta and Maui. Hippo was totally useless to me because I got her VERY early in the game and couldn't use her because I was all alone out there, so I'll reserve judgement. But Anansi was great to take away luxes from my neighbor and getting
    great science and culture in return. Maui was OK, but not sure I would have liked him as much if I hadn't gone sanguine and built up an excellent castle with his help. As mentioned in another thread, 4 charges seems kind of weak.

    Conclusion ? So far, even in playing a totally peaceful game with not a single war, Babylon still stands up as a pretty good civ. More important, it's fun to play ;-)

    Will let you know how my end game went ;-)

    EDIT: And forgot to mention, I didn't get lucky at all for pantheon, took just a few too many turns to get there, so got stuck with City Patron Goddess. Really. Honest to thruth, that was THE best one still available ;-( But I DID get work ethic and World Chruch with my religion, so not all was bad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  3. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    I'm playing a Pachacuti game on Prince difficulty using all modes except Tech Shuffle, while also using many mods, including Civilizations Expanded and Tera Mirabilis. I got Beowulf, Hercules, and Anansi as my heroes so far. Beowulf I got first, and he was okay. Not in terms of strength, but I wasn't really able to use him to his full effect. He did clear a few Barbarian Camps for me, so not totally wasted. Anansi was my second Hero, and boy oh boy did I enjoy it. With Anansi, I was able to rush through the Tech and Civics tree, getting Political Philosophy before anyone else and getting Autocracy. Hercules is the third Hero so far, and he's been pretty useful. Managed to get an Encampment in my third City, and an Industrial Zone in my Capital. Also, out of the 25 Era Score needed to get a Golden Age, I got more than a 100. In the Ancient Era. :lol::lol::lol: I haven't even reached the Classical Era yet...
     
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  4. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I've finally gotten around to trying Babylon, and...what a bizarre civ. I just build a Niter mine and unlocked The Wheel and Rifling on the same turn in the Classical Era. It's funny for now, but I'm not sure how I feel about this longer term.
     
  5. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    Won a Babylon deity science victory.

    Imo-- and this probably isn't a new observation-- but counterintuitively, science is probably their weakest victory type. At one point I was ~10 techs ahead of the nearest AI (Kongo), but hit a proverbial bottleneck once I couldn't generate anymore eurekas and was unable to steal techs from the AI; so much so, in fact, that it allowed Kongo to catch up (which worked in my favor as it gave me techs to steal). I did manage to "outscience" the AI, though that was due to a combination of the +4 university Great Scientist, powered research labs, communism and conquering my nearest neighbor (Germany).

    in fairness, I may have been able to win ~30 - 40 turns earlier had I bothered to make more than 3 campuses for the majority of the game and run research projects. But I also could have won ~75 - 100 turns earlier had I gone all in with domination.
     
  6. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Well, the faster Science Victory is always about the number of Campus you have. Personally, if I am aiming for a SV, I would plop +3 Campuses whenever possible even if there is a -50% penalty.
     
  7. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, -50% is rough, but you still have to tech things yourself so you can't ignore it altogether. One thing I might need to test in my game is whether the research grants project also suffers from the penalty. I have a lot of big industrial zones pumping out coal, so I wonder if I can just build my way along the tech tree.
     
  8. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    I've been playing a bit more, and I have concluded that I don't think this is a very good civ design. One thing is that it is taking the anachronistic aspect of Civ a bit too far...as I mentioned I unlocked the Wheel (Ancient) and Rifling (Industrial) on the same turn. My biggest issue, however, is that they have taken the fetch questy-nature of Eurekas, which I already dislike, and made it the primary way in which you progress. I maintain that it would have been better to have Eurekas/Inspirations give a percentage modifier boost while researching, as opposed to a lump sum of beakers. It would mitigate the meta of swapping out techs to avoid wasting beakers, and it would mean starting research of a tech earlier would always contribute to getting the tech earlier. For Babylon, it would mean you actually went through techs in a somewhat sensible order. As it stands, you could relatively easily unlock Machinery before the Wheel, or you could have steel before you know how to work iron, or have rifles before crossbows, and so on.

    I like the leader ability, getting the first building in a district or a free envoy is good. I also liked the unique water mill more than I though I would. The unique unit is okay.
     
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  9. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    Still on that first game as warmongering Babylon but its end game now and I'm probably going SV because 26 cities already and still 5 overseas capitals to conquer not challenging but tedious. I think I have a pretty good list of the eurekas I missed (so techs I had to research):

    • Buttress - I was too busy warring to think about a wonder until too late. Statue of Zeus, in hindsight, would've been perfect for my situation.
    • Education - should've got a campus up sooner and bought an early GS with with faith. Stranded this tech and Printing and Astronomy as I eureka'd everything else around the tree
    • Military Science = yeah I had Knights but for some reason forgot about the killing a unit thing until they were all Cuirassiers and whoops!
    There were also other times I put research into techs that I got for free anyway, but after 260 turns (epic speed) I am pretty much done the tech tree except for the last techs that all require spies or GS to boost. I will have to use most of the next era which is too bad this would be a super fast SV for me if I could close it by turn 300.

    I can't see Babylon posing much of a challenge for veteran Deity players. I have SS, Heroes, and Dramatic Ages on so its hard to be sure which is the OP part of my game the civ or the modes.

    I think I'll have to do a second run as Hammurabi with Tech Shuffle on.
     
  10. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    I'm starting to dislike Babylon now even as an AI opponent. They mess up the game and shatter the immersion completley. Just as I reached Medieval era (boosted by Anasi no less) there were barbarian musketeers roaming the map and I suspect this was Babylons doing. Also the eras seemed to be going by quickly does Babylons teching affect this too?

    I can appriciate how mechanically Babylon offers an exciting new way to play the game and people who have already mastered the game could have fun experimenting with the opportunities they offer. For me the ability to leapfrog technologies eras feels far too detached from the historical basis of civ. I'm hoping a 'Civ Ban' option in the mold of the Natural Wonder picker will be added in the future.
     
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  11. comatosedragon

    comatosedragon Emperor

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    Huh. I just noticed this in a game I was playing yesterday, the eras were flying by, not giving me the usual time to get era score. I had also hand-picked Babylon as an opponent in this game; it didn't dawn on me until I read your post why the eras were going by so quick......
     
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  12. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Babylon does do odd things with city-states, but that might be a positive - it's much harder for the AI to take them. Of course that can make the game easier, since the AI still loves attacking CSes and now it will often lose its army while doing so.
     
  13. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, I finished my Babylon game, and it was fun, but just a little too wild with the tech jumping.

    I think overall, it would have been better for civ as a whole to basically have the system where if you have the eureka, your civ simply doubles their science while researching a tech (so in that case, you want the eureka before you even start on the tech for the max boost), and then for a civ like Babylon, you do something like double or triple that bonus. So they would still be an ASAP get boost civ, but wouldn't be able to tech modern armor before knights.
     
  14. esoba

    esoba Warlord

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    Well first game as Babylon in the books. Holy hell are they next level powerful. I was launching a Mars colony pre-1900s (epic pacing). They are fun for a different type of game but I think I'm done playing with them or having them in future games. They're just a bit too crazy.

    On a side note, i love the heros. I used anansi in an offensive way where I sent him to a rival's territory to systematically destroy their luxury items. Caused them some massive difficulties midgame to the point i didn't have to fire a shot they were essentially out of the game. I know some people probably don't like this addition, but it really does add some additional strategy.
     
  15. DavidPBacon

    DavidPBacon Chieftain

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    Almost at the end of my first playthrough with Babylon and I must say, they are Op, fun and odd, all in one. I played a King, Huge, epic map, Continents, with abudant resources and heroes and SS. My impression is that they are a slow burner, since I was tied in science (techs, actually) with Gilga for most of the first part of the game, but once I reached Industrial age, I skyrocketed to the point I have no match, in anything. I get all the wonders I want, lead in faith, culture AND Science, have the most CSs and bigger and most advanced armies. The trick is not to forget to invest in science, so you can aim to a SV. Liked it, but probably wil skip it in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  16. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Maybe Babylon should have been a game mode instead :lol:
     
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  17. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    You may be right...I can imagine Babylon being quite annoying to play against.

    As for my current game, I'm not sure I will finish it (in fact, I started a new Vox Populi game last night, playing as the Inca). I'm leading very clearly, and it seems culture victory is the one which would happen first, but I'm getting bored. I think there are numerous systems in Civ 6 which could do with some serious refinement or redesign. The expansions didn't really do much in this regard, and with NFP, they seem hesitant to even do minor balance adjustments. Meanwhile, the new content is making the game wackier and more unbalanced. It can be fun for a while, but I fear this too will never be refined in a significant way.
     
  18. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    I din't consider City States but now that you mention it I was fighting one and they got crossbows against me pretty early. I like the idea behind giving them a powerful bonus with a cost but this is just too wacky and game breaking. I'm sure you can pull off crazy stuff with other civs but it usually requires some set up to pull off and you certainly would not see the AI doing it, for Hammurabi however it's just another day at the office.
     
  19. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    In case some folks were wondering, here is a screenshot of a Babylonian city's science breakdown, showing how the penalty is applied after all sources such as Campus research grants, and is summed with other modifiers:
    Spoiler :

    Babylon science penalty.jpg Note the -50% penalty has been softened by having a communist government (10%) and an empire wide bonus from Kilwa Kisiwani (15%). In Babylon my net science modifier is +5% because of Pingala(15%), Communism(10%), and local modifier for Kilwa + 2 science CS (30%)
     
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  20. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso King

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    What you call "historical basis" for the tech tree is just eurocentrism. Unlocking animal husbandry and horseback riding for the Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Mapuches or Cree in the ancient and classical eras are completely ahistorical because they had no horses and very little animals to domesticate (only llamas). Having the Incas discovering and using the Wheel in classical era while they never used it in the same way is also ahistorical (having a civ using so much mountains unlocking the wheel so early makes no sense because they wouldn't had as many roads as Europeans let's say). And, let's be honest, having Canada, the US, Brazil or Australia in the Ancient Era is also completely ahistorical.

    What I like with Babylon is that you truly have an accurate representation of what technological advancement could have been, realistically and historically. Do they start on the water? Then they will know how to sail. Do they have a lot of mines? Then the wheel would naturally come to exploit them. Do they have a lot of barbarians near them? Well, iron working becomes a necessity. Lots of prerequisites (outside the tech/civics shuffle mode) make sense only in a European point of view, but why on earth do you need writing to unlock currency? You could develop a system of currency without a developed writing system. Why do you need currency to unlock mathematics? You could develop maths without needing money to use this new science. Why do you need horseback riding to unlock construction? Any civilization is unable to start building big things if they cannot ride on horses? That's preposterous.

    But with Babylon, we have a more realistic, in a sense, way of advancing through technologies. Scientific research became some sort of a streamlined, rational process only after the Scientific Method. Before that, people observed something, tried something, and if they were lucky, they discovered something new. That's perfectly represented through the tech-jump Babylon experiences.

    In a way, I'd love to have something similar for all civs. Making the scientific process more random. We discover techs in the Ancient Era as if we had the infrastructures of today, which is the thing that makes no sense. And if will allow really different gameplays and civs. Now, what we have, it's civs that are roughly following the same past of technological enlightment. Wouldn't it be cool if you encounter a civ that hasn't discovered the wheel or sailing while you did, but they're already exploiting niter while you have no bloody idea of what niter is.

    Like, my ideal system would be no technological tree, but to start researching a tech, you need to "unlock" it - this would be the role of the Eurekas - and once it's unlock, you could research it without any prerequesite. Of course, some Eurekas would be a previous tech, keeping the "tech tree" in some form (like, yeah, you need mining before iron working, that makes sense) but otherwise, each play would be different because the way you'll unlock the techs would be at first map dependent and then different on how you play or prioritize your civilization.

    I really like Babylon for this and it's now one of my favourite civs.
     

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