Babylon, Progress then Tradition?

[FPXI]

Is the best Babylon Social Policy route Progress --> Tradition - - > Rationalism?

If Babylon goes Tradition they face a couple of problems:

• Usually broke as hell. No money to benefit from UA or UNW
• Few Cities to build walls in
• Babylon wants to be in the top half of the tech tree, which is weak in both production and happiness.

The result is that when going Tradition first Babylon will often get stuck in a very slow start and need to rely on a Bowmen rush to secure an extra city or two. This isn't great either because again, we're short on happiness. Gold and production can't keep up with all the buildings they want to rush out. Ultimately this start feels pretty bad.

And yet, Babylon REALLY wants to pickup all the boosts it can to Great Scientist generation, and so tradition seems like a must.

Ithe Medieval period Babylon can really take any of the trees but none of them feel great:

• Fealty is probably the least good choice, but in some situations it might be viable because they need the happiness it provides and internal trade routes help make a bigger capital, which Babylon wants, and they usually manage to be in the religion race.
• Statecraft gets Babylon the gold it desperately needs and there's a fairly large science boost from Shadow Networks, but Babylon has no tools to play the city-state game once it gets serious and Statecraft will be a lot less culture in the end than Tradition will.
• Artistry seems a natural pick. It gives a percentage science boost afterall, but honestly Babylon doesn't really care about the rest of the tree. Babylon is never going for a culture victory and they struggles to build a lot of wonders because they want to be investing in buildings as much as possible to take advantage of the gold efficiency provided by their UA.

The thing about great people is that, because of their scaling costs, it doesn't matter too much when you get them. Babylon gets one for free. They get lots of Science from their walls. They don't need to be getting great scientists early and settling them right away. They can wait.

And so what if we choose progress first instead? More cities for walls more gold and hammers right away. Some per city happiness, which is helpful for avoiding a slow start. And best of all, Babylon can trigger the Expertise culture bonus more often than other civs thanks to their UA, just as long as they have the gold. And then instead of taking a tier two Policy tree, we double back and grab Tradition?

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For reference, the relevant parts of Babylon's kit:

UA Ingenuity: Receive a Free Great Scientist when you discover Writing, and Great Scientists are earned 50% faster than normal. Investing Gold in Buildings reduces their Production cost by an additional 15%.

UB Walls of Babylon (same as wall plus):

• Science: +3
• Great Scientist Points: 3
• Empire-Wide Effects:
• • +5% Science from Discover Technology

UNW Etemenanki (replaces National Monument)
Culture: +4
Faith: +2
Great Work of Art or Artifact slots: 1
Local Effects:
• +25% Great Person Rate
• When purchasing/investing with Gold in any City: Gain Food equal to 10% of Gold cost
• When purchasing/investing with Gold in any City: Gain Science equal to 10% of Gold cost
• When a Citizen is born in this City: +25 , scaling with Era
• When adopting a Policy: +50 , scaling with Era
Empire-Wide Effects:
• +1 to Monument in all Cities
• +2 to Shrine in all Cities

 

[hokath]

The thing about great people is that, because of their scaling costs, it doesn't matter too much when you get them. Babylon gets one for free. They get lots of Science from their walls. They don't need to be getting great scientists early and settling them right away. They can wait.

Yes and no. If you go Tradition second, you are potentially missing dozens and dozens of specialist turns (probably 100s of points), and also the 25% boost from Palace Gardens.

However the rest of the analysis is sound. So yeah. Progress->Tradition seems reasonable.

 

[Lystrin]

tradition isnt any better for getting great scientists than any of the medieval trees. tradition buffs GP generation in the capital exclusively, but scientists dont have slots on limited buildings (guilds, diplo NWs) so tradition isnt giving you as much. walls of babylon give +3 great sci points, which makes wide scientist generation second-nature for them. they dont lean towards any of the medieval trees, but theyre all better than trad imo.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm a big booster for industry babylon instead of rationalism. Fixes your gold problem entirely and stacks your investment completion bonus to 75% of production. The tree makes Babylon's gold efficiency incredibly good.

 

[Lifeordeath]

I'm a big booster for industry babylon instead of rationalism. Fixes your gold problem entirely and stacks your investment completion bonus to 75% of production. The tree makes Babylon's gold efficiency incredibly good.

I'd also make the argument that a science victory is only about 60% science at most, the rest is on production/infrastructure. Since Babylon already has lots of science, why not bolster their production instead? I hadn't quite thought of it like that before but it kinda makes sense

 

[FPXI]

I'm a big booster for industry babylon instead of rationalism. Fixes your gold problem entirely and stacks your investment completion bonus to 75% of production. The tree makes Babylon's gold efficiency incredibly good.

I hadn't considered this either, and this does seem much more flexible and synergistic. That then makes State Craft much more appealing. .

 

[Legen]

My experience with Babylon is that they excel when going Wide Progress -> Statecraft -> Rationalism -> Freedom.

• Progress's culture on techs is very efficient until around Late Medieval, while also giving you solid boosts for infrastructure. Every point of Science were also a free point of Culture. Worth beelining to Medieval before researching most Ancient/Classical techs.
• Statecraft is an excellent source of Gold. Coupled with Progress, Babylon should not be struggling to maintain your infrastructure on par with your technology.
• Rationalism is too synergistic with Babylon's boosts to Great Scientist generation and bulbing. Babylon can end with a single GS bulb generating over 70k Science, reaching that matters more than anything provided by the other two trees. Also, GS Faith purchase.
• Freedom makes sure you can keep working as many scientists as possible in every city, New Deal is amazing with the amount of Academies Babylon generates, and the tier 3 Space Procurements is affected by Babylon's UA (the investment part).

You really don't need Tradition, the extra +25% in the capital is dwarfed by the UA's +50% GS rate in all cities. My late game with Babylon tends to look like this:

Spoiler :

 

[FPXI]

I guess i should have been a little clearer about Tradition vs Statecraft specifically. The idea of going the Tradition route over statecraft is for the culture gain from Splendor allowing us to reach Rationalism earlier. Having played a bit more, whether or not this is worthwhile probably depends on whether or not you can pickup TTGOG.