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Backstab or not ?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ABHPage, Apr 19, 2010.

  1. ABHPage

    ABHPage Warlord

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    I've upgraded to playing monarch in this game. So far I think I'm doing good. It's 890 AD. I get 202 science per turn, I have tech lead, first to get education. I'm playing as Ragnar. Right now I have a stack of trebs and berserkers (one of them attached to a GG with medic III leadership and tactics) and I need to use it. I've been the first to get civil service and I want to use my UU.

    My score is 708. Catherine from Russia beats me by 1 point, she has 709. Her capital is 4-5 squares south of my 2nd city. We have same religion and civics so she likes me a lot. I was thinking of backstabbing her anyways, but the thing is the 5 strongest nations all have our religion and are all friends with catherine. On the other hand there's Hayuna Capac in the east that's in a different religion and hates me, he's been at war with me forever and doesn't want peace.

    I'm not sure if I take Moscow and Novgorod that I will be able to keep them. So. Should I attack Catherine anyways and spoil our relationship (and get negative points with all our hindu friends) to burn down her 2 biggest cities and remove her from power tie with me, or should I first take care of the heathen Hayuna with my berserker, beeline lib and try to delay it as long as possible to try and get steel and then backstab cath ?

    Does she attack at friendly and or pleased ?
     
  2. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Score generally has only a vague correlation with any important measure of success.

    If you want good advice, posting a pic or two and the save are good ideas.
     
  3. Quothz

    Quothz Chieftain

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    Feb 24, 2008
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    Catherine won't plan a war with you when she's friendly, but can at pleased. However, she's unique in that she can be -bribed- into war against someone with whom she is friendly. Sharing borders with her makes me nervous.

    One option is to bribe her into joining your war, or more broadly, to keep her immersed in one war or another all the time. When your rivals come a'knockin' and beg her to smack you, she'll have too much on her hands. You'll have t'be friendly with her, I believe, to bribe her into doing the dirty your dirty work.

    If that's too expensive, or not workable for whatever reason, I personally would erase her from the map if I thought I could get away with it. If she's close to you in military strength, you can mix n' match a little--bribe her into war with someone she can easily reach, let her bang her forehead against 'em for a while, then when she's exhausted and falling behind you on tech, cold-like betray her and claim her lands as your own. Then go mop up whomever she was fighting.

    I'm sure better players'n I can give better advice than I can if you hang a saved game on your post, tho'.
     
  4. v8_mark

    v8_mark Prince

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    I think Cathy can be bribed against other AIs at pleased rather than friendly (she *can* be bribed against you at friendly, of course) but otherwise, what Quothz said is the way to go.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeah, ignore the score for the most part. When you mention it like you do, most folks are just going to go "huh". Checking out your advisers and F9 screens is a much better way to gauge where your are at that point.

    As for your medic III, I recommend placing it on a unit that is less likely to be attacked in your stack. Either don't upgrade a warrior or place it on a chariot, which is what I normally do - plus it has a better chance to escape. Although I rarely have a warrior that survives this scenario, you can try to get him to woodsman III/medic III which has stacking health bonus. It's really hard to get which is why I just go with a chariot.
     
  6. catfish99

    catfish99 Warlord

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    With the caveat that I'm just going from your description, and may be missing all the facts: attack the Incas and don't think twice.
    1. You share religion with Cathy and "all her friends", so you will take a large, long-lived diplo hit for attacking her.
    2. You are already at war with the Incas and they will not talk.
    3. You can use Cathy as a lapdog for centuries to come. Keep her at war and you know your flank is safe from a backstab, and at least two other civs will fall behind b/c of the war effort.
    4. HC will declare at pleased, so he is not a nice neighbor either. He won't trade techs, but Cathy is willing. All in all, she is the better choice for a border share.
     
  7. ABHPage

    ABHPage Warlord

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    All right so here's the update. I attacked Huayna Capac, which has been a good move. No diplo hit, and I got two nice cities 'including mids which let me use representation (although I was 3 turns from constitution.. oh well) and lots of other wonders. His leftover cities are on an island and I didn't have good boats back then so I made peace. After that I've been building universities and observatories and hindu temples (I have sankore) to boost reasearch. I've been able to maintain tech lead but not by much, all AI are tech trade whores.

    So now I've just got rifling. I'm the first to get it. Personally I would wait to get the two tech I need to build levees in my cities, by then I should have steel and be able to build riflimen and cannons. Also I will soon be able to build oxford university in Crom's Hill, which has another GS on the way. It'll soon be over 300 science by itself.

    It's only my 2nd monarch game. I awfully lost the first one. This time I think I'm doing not too bad, but I've come to a point where I don't know what to do. Do I keep trying to outech everyone ? Do I attack ? If so, who ? We're all ''brothers of the faith'' and everyone loves everyone. I was thinking of building up a few cannons and riflemen as I said, so I could raze moscow and st-petersburg. Just for kicks, and to cripple Cath forever. I don't think I should capture them as I doubt I'll be able to guard them. Then maybe I could go and raze Askum to kick Zara in the crotch. That's usually how I play at nolbe/prince but I'm not sure in my situation I could manage the diplo hit.

    The save is attached any help is appreciated. Thanks.

    PS I could trade rifling for scientific method to Zara but it obsoletes my great library and my monasteries and would make me lose lots of beakers, I think I'm better off waiting a bit ?
     

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  8. ABHPage

    ABHPage Warlord

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    Forgot to mention one thing I would be very interested in learning is how to get someone to attack cath or Zara ? I have never successfully bribed someone into war in all my civ games.
     
  9. David7

    David7 Chieftain

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    With sufficient espionage points, you can change another civilizations religion and civics IIRC. That might work to isolate Catherine.
     
  10. Woodreaux

    Woodreaux Prince

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    This is true. However, you must take that plunge yourself first. You can only :espionage: flip another civ's :religion: or civic into one which you are running at the time. So before isolating Cathy, you'll at least temporarily expose yourself. Minimum duration is the anarchy from your initial switch until the civic/religion switch cool-down period.
     
  11. blue_7

    blue_7 Warlord

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    Jan 30, 2008
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    this is a very interesting game you have. i took a look at it and you seem like your in a pretty good position. it was very smart that you didnt attack Catherine because she look like she can drag your butt all over the continent. inca was a good choice although i noticed that charlie got some incan lands as well? if i was playing this game i would have finished off inca so you dont have to deal with that annoying "we earn to be with our mother country" crap. you didnt even vassilize them?

    im not sure what victory condition your going for or if you even have one in mind right now. normally once i get lib that's when i make my decision. cultural beeline mass media, conquest go for infantry artillery or space straight to satellites. a diplomatic victory is a possibility in this game because your entire continent is in a love fest but you will have to do some tech gifting or espionage to make sure the other candidate is hated by most people. as of right now its hard to say. i think the easiest way to go is pick in the weak ones. beeline infantry and artillery and destroy everybody who isn't on your continent starting with those tundra nations in the south. vassilzing and gaining power might give you the edge in a diplomatic victory or domination. also because everybody near you likes you, you shouldn't have to worry about getting invaded.

    im guessing your running a specialist economy? because i see almost no cottaging at all.
     
  12. ABHPage

    ABHPage Warlord

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    What does IIRC means ?

    I never saw the capitulate option. Also, by the time I ended the war they were so weak I feared vassalizing them might negatively affect my power ratio. Charlemagne DoW on the incans when he saw my SoD pass through his territory to go conquer Incan cities and he managed to grab the few southern cities which kept Huayna busy while I was taking his 2 biggest cities. Now that you mention it and that I do have galleons, I could go and finish him off on his island, grabbing 2 of his 3 cities and razing one if its too high on maintenance. I was just wondering if it would be a waste of time - he's badly crippled and won't be a nuisance anymore, while cath and Zara are bothering me and very close by land.

    When I got lib I bulbed Nationalism to be able to get constitution quickly and run representation. Too bad I didn't realize that Huayna had the pyramids in one of his cities or I could've bulbed something else. As for victory I usually go for Space or domination. I've only won a domination once in my life, on the huge earth18civ scenario, with 109 cities in my control and only one rival left with 3... before I finally got the domination victory. It seems almost impossible on huge maps, but I like playing huuuge maps with maximum opponents, makes the game more crowded and diplo complex. If I start war with anyone on my continent I fear all the others will attack, unless I try this espionnage thing to switch their religion.

    Finally, yes, I am running heavily on specialists. When I began the game I saw good food almost everywhere so I figured I'd experiment with it since most games I've been relying on cottages. So far at the same timeline I'm getting 250-300 science beaker more than in my last game in which I used cottages, and it was on prince.

    I also fund my empire by capturing cities and most of all, selling obsolete tech to backwards civs for big money. Sometimes they pay me like 1000 plus an old tech in exchange for something I discovered 50+ turns ago.. So whenever I can sell something useless for good money I do it.
     
  13. Bigv32

    Bigv32 Prince

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    looked at the game for a few in the worldbuilder, but I will not give anything major away.

    Based on the fact that you have rifles, build some siege (any will do they are just for city culture take downs) and go to town on cathy. if you are quick about it, you could probably take holy roman empire out as well. most of their army appears to be in one city right on you border so you could really do some damage.

    I would recommend building a bunch of workers and I do mean a bunch of them. beeline replaceable parts and spam lumbermills. that will help your economy while you steamroll the rest of your continent. After the whole continent is yours, either build boats or cottage up and shoot for the starts.

    Some questions about your game.

    1. Why are some of your cities so spread out and you have not filled in the gaps? You could easily fit three or four good cities in if you wanted.

    2. You say you are running a specialist economy, but the most specialists I saw were three in one city, but most only had 1. In the end, you may have been better focusing one city on specialists and the rest on cottages. Am I missing something?

    3. To go along with the lumbermill idea above, why have you not chopped some of those forests? I understand you wanted a few for lumbermills, but to help build faster it may be worth considering.

    NOTE:

    With your tech lead, don't worry about others attacking you if you attack cathy. Just leave a few troops on your borders to be safe and go straight for her. If it was me I would take out cathy, swing east to take out HRE and then more west to take out everyone else.
     
  14. ABHPage

    ABHPage Warlord

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    1. I only founded my first 5 cities. All others were captured from elminating Kublai Khan and Huayna Capac. But you are right, I didn't really look, there's A LOT of open land between north of Great Plains/west of Karakorum. It's just that... It's crappy/ no water land. That one part of my game I need to work on. How do you grow cities that aren't near rivers and have no fresh water access ?

    2. No you're not missing anything. I was actually wondering this myself. I just can't seem to understand how to get enough food to have many specialists. Even in my heavy foodresource/floodplains city I can hardly have 2-4 specialists. This game was mainly my first try at specialists and 2nd monarch try.

    3. I don't plan on using lumbermills. Workshops are better. But I only chop trees when I need it for settlers, wonders, universities, stuff like that. All through BC I use whip more than anything. Also I've been building wealth a lot in lots of cities for many turns to be able to research faster. I usually warmonger a lot in the BC, calm down to tech whore in medieval while sending one SoD on someone to get GG's, then start warring again when I get infantry and attach/settle my old GG's as I see fit.
     
  15. blue_7

    blue_7 Warlord

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    figures charlie is such a oppurtinistist

    maybe you have vassals turned off, or did you have feudalism when you fought him? my advice is take out inca so you dont have to worry about the bad effects and if the maintenance is to high which prob will be for island cities. grant independence to them and you will get a nice new AI that will love you and do what ever you want for the rest of the game.

    i always play on standard maps because my computer cant handle huge so i dont really know what its like to go for domination with 18 AIs. but another advantage to invading those weak backwards nations is to get vassals who will vote for you if you do decide to go diplomatic or religious. and of course think about all the resources that you can extort from them. dont touch anybody on your continent though, you are all happy with each other and you really dont want to be the odd ball out being surrounded like you are. rage a holy war against those Confucius(opps that might have been a spoiler im shutting up about that)

    i have never tried a specialist economy before, i always do cottage and hammer ecnomies. maybe i will give it a try next game. i dont think i ever had over 700beakers before 1500AD. what do do just build farms using extra food for specialists, while running caste and rp? sounds easy enough.

    you've got the tech trading down pretty nice just keep that up and doing deficient research and you should be able to keep up with the techers easily.
     
  16. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    The biggest single problem that I see with your game is that every signle one of your cities is 4-5 pop below the happy cap. Every one of your cities should be substantially larger than it is now. Also, there is a lot of questionable development of those cities, that keeps them from realizing their potential. For example:

    -Karakorum is an wonderful gp farm, with 3 5:food: tiles, a flood plain, and a lake. Yet you're loaning one of the seafood to another city and working :hammers: tiles. Even where it is at pop 9 you can assign 5 scientists by working the 3 5:food: tiles only. Instead of cottaging the flood plain, it should have been farmed and the city grown to its happy cap. At size 12 it could easily support 7 specialists.

    -GoldenRiver has 8 flood plains tiles and no cottages on any of them! :eek: Are you kidding me? And you're only working a couple of those flood-plain farms to run a single specialist? Every one of those flood plains should have towns on them by now, and the city should be substantially larger to work all of them plus the 2 gold mines. This city is criminal.

    -Crom'sHill likewise has 4 riverside grassland + 1 flood plain and only a single cottage on all of those wonderful tiles? Every signle one of them should have a town by now. This is a bureaucracy capital, so it gets a 50% bonus on :hammers: and :commerce:, so you should have every one of those grassland tiles cottaged. You also have a ton of plains forests, some of which should have been chopped earlier, but the rest should have been immediately had lumbermills once you researched RepParts. Also, Karakorum would have been a much better location for the NE.

    GreatPlains - fire those specialists and work your floodplains and workshops. This is a decent production city, not a gp farm, especially if you're thinking about war soon. This is your HE city - it should be focused on production, not building a university. You also have 2 GGs sitting in your capital - send them here and make them military instructors.

    Seadoor - you have merchant specs, yet are not working a 5:food:3:commerce: seafood tile and are 4 pop below your happy cap? Fire the merchants ane work the seafood to grow.

    You also haven't built a single courthouse, which is a drag on your economy. Several of your coastal cities don't even have lighthouses (a.k.a. trading posts) yet.

    I could go on and on with every one of your cities, but hopefully you get the point by now. :) The power of cities comes from working as many good tiles as possible, so you want to grow your cities to their happy and health caps as quickly as you can. You are substantially under those caps in every one of your cities, and you're not even taking advantage of markets and grocers and resource trades to move those caps 3-4 pop higher than they currently are. Do this throughout the game and you will be amazed at the improvement.

    If you want to got to war now, switch to nationalism and draft 10-15 rifles, use your big pile of gold to upgrade your berserkers and muskets to rifles, and go to it.
     
  17. David7

    David7 Chieftain

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    It means if I remember correctly.
     

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