Baghdad, the city that doesn't work

YNCS

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The other day, the New York Times quoted one of that ever-helpful breed, a "senior administration official," as expressing surprise at the horrendous condition of Iraq’s "infrastructure," even before the destruction brought about by the war and its aftermath. "From the outside it looked like Baghdad was a city that works," the senior official said. "It isn’t."

The quintessential city that works (or, at least, has a cleverly cultivated reputation for being the city that works) is, of course, Chicago. The ward heelers and aldermen of that city understand (or, at least, are celebrated in song and story for understanding) that political power flows not from the barrel of a gun, and not even, necessarily, from the ballot box (whose contents can change in the counting), but from the ability to fix potholes. Garbage that gets collected, buses and trains that take people places, cops that whack bad guys upside the head, taps that yield clean water when you turn them, lights that go on when you flip the switch, all lubricated by taxes and a bit of honest graft—these are what keep streets calm, voters pacified, and righteous "reformers" out of City Hall.

By Chicago standards, Baghdad, along with almost all the rest of Iraq, is a catastrophe. For that matter, conditions are disastrous even by the looser standards of places like Beirut, Bogotá, and Bombay. Reports from the scene are in general agreement on the essentials. Iraq is well rid of the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. But the blithe assumptions of the Iraq war’s Pentagon architects—that a grateful Iraqi nation, with a little help from American know-how and Iraqi oil cash, would quickly pick itself up, dust itself off, and start all over again—are as shattered as the buildings that used to house Saddam’s favorite restaurants. In Baghdad, and in many other Iraqi cities and towns, civic society has degenerated into a Hobbesian state of nature. Despite the heroic efforts of a scattered minority of midlevel Iraqi civil servants, the services that make urban life viable are functioning, at best, erratically. More often, they do not function at all. "In the most palpable of ways, the American promise of a new Iraq is floundering on the inability of the American occupiers to provide basic services," the Times’s Neela Banerjee reported a few days ago. (Perhaps with an eye to educating her White House readers, she added that Baghdad is "about the size of metropolitan Houston.") Telephones are dead. Electricity and running water work, if at all, for only a few hours a day. Because the water pumps are hobbled by power outages, raw sewage is pouring into the Tigris River and is leaking into the fresh-water system, spreading disease and making the city stink. Hospitals that are secure enough to remain open overflow with patients, but they are short of food, medical supplies, and personnel. (Only a fifth of prewar health staffs are showing up for work.) Worst of all is the pervasive, well-founded fear of crime. Armed thugs rule the streets, especially in the pitch-black nights. "Amid such privations," Banerjee writes, "one of the few things that thrives now in Baghdad, at least, is a deepening distrust and anger toward the United States."
 
From 'Lawrence of Arabia'

A thousand Arabs means a thousand knives, delivered anywhere day or night. It means a thousand camels. That means a thousand packs of high explosives and a thousand crack rifles. We can cross Arabia while Johnny Turk is still turning round, and smash his railways. And while he's mending them, I'll smash them somewhere else. In thirteen weeks, I can have Arabia in chaos.

I have to go rent or buy the dvd. Ive seen it a million times, but not since the Iraq war. Im sure I'll see it in a whole new light.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Maybe they'd better send the Engineer Corps instead of the Marines and Tanks?
Substantial parts of the European Balkan forces are engineers for good reasons - no other military unit can improve relations to such an extent.

And obviously it works. I've never heard about some hatred for the Czech troops in Kosovo or Bosnia. In fact, the natives are glad they are here.
 
Oh I forgot, Baghdad basic services only worked before the war because of an incessant state of terror against the population, this ensured the underfunded infrastructure, which I might add is 30 years old and recieved scant support, barely functioned either. No wonder Iraqis are annoyed, everydamn problem which could of been fixed during that period has culminated into a extremely large problem to deal with, and which will take many years to fix.

The US in Iraq only highlighted these problems once the previous regime was kicked out. So, all the problems of infrastructure and non functioning services were there, they only weren't mentioned or repaired, because funds were shifted to other such things as new Palaces or memorials celebrating the new Saladin which was Saddam.

Highlight the fact the US and Iraqi forces are fighting a tough insurgency hell bent on showing how the time of Saddam was much better than the current situation. But what people tend to overlook is that people's lives seemed better, only to find out that they lived in a perpetual state of terror of being executed by the thugs of Saddam.
 
Communism, do you have something like Windows automatic updates in your head, and the Pentagon regularly sends you patches and updates for Reality 2.0?

Moderator Action: Such comments add nothing to the discussion
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Communism, do you have something like Windows automatic updates in your head, and the Pentagon regularly sends you patches and updates for Reality 2.0?

If your picture of spock makes you as logical as he is, then you'd realise the problems of underfunded infrastructure in Iraq was exaberated by the previous regime and it has all now come to a head.
 
Communism, I dont want to get into a big thing with you, and youre certainly entitled to your beliefs, but come on, you arent suggesting that its just a coincidence that Iraqs infrastructure happens to be falling apart while we're occupying the country? The constant sabotage from the insurgents has nothing to do with it?
 
communism said:
Oh I forgot, Baghdad basic services only worked before the war because of an incessant state of terror against the population, this ensured the underfunded infrastructure, which I might add is 30 years old and recieved scant support, barely functioned either. No wonder Iraqis are annoyed, everydamn problem which could of been fixed during that period has culminated into a extremely large problem to deal with, and which will take many years to fix.

The US in Iraq only highlighted these problems once the previous regime was kicked out. So, all the problems of infrastructure and non functioning services were there, they only weren't mentioned or repaired, because funds were shifted to other such things as new Palaces or memorials celebrating the new Saladin which was Saddam.

Highlight the fact the US and Iraqi forces are fighting a tough insurgency hell bent on showing how the time of Saddam was much better than the current situation. But what people tend to overlook is that people's lives seemed better, only to find out that they lived in a perpetual state of terror of being executed by the thugs of Saddam.

ridiculous

no where have i seen so much silly nonsense packed together as ive seen in your few posts, if you read the article it clearly states that problems are worse now, even worse than before the war, but hey youre right, why care about factual facts when we can belive your fictional made up facts instead? :rolleyes:

i mean the reporter is obviously there, and youre obviously not, but of course, you know better... :lol:

and mind you, the prewar baghdad was a mess compared to the pre -91 war baghdad and the way it was before embargoes placed on iraq after that war took effect

bombed power plants, water towers, broken down sewage pumps (because of embargo), etc, still things were better, thats saying alot
 
rmsharpe said:
So we're kind of getting back to the old "Mussolini made the trains run on time" (which was not actually true) type of situation.
So? If you improve the quality of life (say what you will but most people like electricity more than they like voting) then they will go along with you. This is true if you are Mussolini, Daley, or Bush. Ofcourse look what happens when you don't do that. I still say that the reason why the insurgents got so powerful was that first month when the troops couldn't restore power. That is when we blew our chances of an easy postwar occupation.
 
no where have i seen so much silly nonsense packed together as ive seen in your few posts, if you read the article it clearly states that problems are worse now, even worse than before the war, but hey youre right, why care about factual facts when we can belive your fictional made up facts instead?

Oh right, the power usage is down, which completely ignores the fact that MOST Iraqis are using MORE power and electricity than when under Saddam. If you have a cite, care to provide one to prove me wrong?

i mean the reporter is obviously there, and youre obviously not, but of course, you know better...

Yes, because I've been researching the Iraqi situation everyday for the past 18 months.

and mind you, the prewar baghdad was a mess compared to the pre -91 war baghdad and the way it was before embargoes placed on iraq after that war took effect

Which exactly proves my point, all those problems CULMINATED and EXABERATED into the problems we see today, which is not entirely Americas fault, 30 YEARS of neglect is something that needs to be overcome quickly, and whilst under constant insurgent threat, it's a very dangerous and ardious task, something in which you don't comprehend.

bombed power plants, water towers, broken down sewage pumps (because of embargo), etc, still things were better, thats saying alot

Yes, because you can't put a price on freedom, but you can put a price on bad services.

Communism, I dont want to get into a big thing with you, and youre certainly entitled to your beliefs, but come on, you arent suggesting that its just a coincidence that Iraqs infrastructure happens to be falling apart while we're occupying the country? The constant sabotage from the insurgents has nothing to do with it?

Of course it does, but you can't blame the US for everything that has gone wrong, most of it was wrong because of massive underfunding by Saddams regime, which only got worse when the regime of terror was booted out. It'll take a long time for them to get running again, but remember thousands of hospitals have been built, and people are now staying in their jobs through massive salary increases.
 
Damm straight

David Kay who headed the ISG concluded that given the total depilperdated state the Iraq was in there is no way Iraq could have an active WMD program. He them pointedly stated the Failure in Iraq can be attributed to the rotten structure the US inherited from Saddam. Specificly the US failure at not seeing the problem until it was too late.

Two years later and 300 Billion spent. With infastructure going backwards it seems almost blind to place the blame on Saddam.
 
communism said:
Oh right, the power usage is down, which completely ignores the fact that MOST Iraqis are using MORE power and electricity than when under Saddam. If you have a cite, care to provide one to prove me wrong? .

i will, when you provide a credible source to prove what you said, i have the article (remeber how this thread started?), and btw how is the water situation now compared to before the war?



communism said:
Yes, because I've been researching the Iraqi situation everyday for the past 18 months.

checking the news online every morning isnt researsch, if that was research, ive been researching for over 10 years
and if youve been checking fox news, youve been doing the exact opposite of research :D


communism said:
Which exactly proves my point, all those problems CULMINATED and EXABERATED into the problems we see today, which is not entirely Americas fault, 30 YEARS of neglect is something that needs to be overcome quickly, and whilst under constant insurgent threat, it's a very dangerous and ardious task, something in which you don't comprehend.

no it dosent, saddam didnt neglect the infrastructure, he actually built it, look at iraqs population numbers for the last 100 years

example; they had raw sewege everywhere, not because of neglect, but because the english machine parts couldnt be bought from england, because of the embargo

look at the situations with their powerplants, look up how many of them were destroyed or damaged by us bombs in these 2 wars



communism said:
Yes, because you can't put a price on freedom, but you can put a price on bad services.

funny how easy it is to make decisions for others to make sacrifices, hilarious!

they can take a few bombs and a few lost relatives and limbs, they is getting FREEDOM!




communism said:
Of course it does, but you can't blame the US for everything that has gone wrong, most of it was wrong because of massive underfunding by Saddams regime, which only got worse when the regime of terror was booted out. It'll take a long time for them to get running again, but remember thousands of hospitals have been built, and people are now staying in their jobs through massive salary increases.

you cant blame the mess now on post war confusion, its been 4 friggin years, after year 1, things shouldve started to improve
 
When you are sitting in 50 degree heat without electricity or clean running water, it is a little difficult to wish away the frustration and anger on the "at least we have freedom" line of argument:p
 
yeah, and what freedom exactly? yea they voted, but untill american forces are there and they dont have an army of their own that they control, they are not free, they are occupied

bush and right wing americans can exclaim the iraqis are free all they want, they can jump up and down while doing so, dosent change a damn thing

are they free to be anti-american? what if they elected a guy whos only political issue he ran on was "america, get out" ?

what if he, after wininning, said: america, get out! would you? of course not, us army takes their orders from washington, not from iraqis, democraticly elected or not!

freedom my ass
 
i will, when you provide a credible source to prove what you said, i have the article (remeber how this thread started?), and btw how is the water situation now compared to before the war?

http://timlambert.org/2005/05/gnfi/

As for the water situation? Most people get water, whereas some got none before.

checking the news online every morning isnt researsch, if that was research, ive been researching for over 10 years

Oh right, because that's what I do right? You liberals, quick to make assumptions about everyone else, how tolerant. Prove to me that Iraqis aren't better off without Saddam.

and if youve been checking fox news, youve been doing the exact opposite of research

I don't watch fox news, and besides, Fox News allows a more balanced opinion than the likes of MSNBC and its Ilk. That's why it's the most watched TV News programme in the US.

no it dosent, saddam didnt neglect the infrastructure, he actually built it, look at iraqs population numbers for the last 100 years

Saying it and actually proving it is a different thing altogether. And if it was so invested, he launched wars and invasions in which the state infrastructure was a bare minimum, and geared towards supplying his state terror apparatus.

Besides, I'm sure the Sunnis got excellent care and medical support, but I'm sure 80% of the non Sunnis (you know Shias and Kurds) got the bare minimum.

example; they had raw sewege everywhere, not because of neglect, but because the english machine parts couldnt be bought from england, because of the embargo

And who is to blame for that? You guessed it Saddam!

look at the situations with their powerplants, look up how many of them were destroyed or damaged by us bombs in these 2 wars

Because Saddam invaded Kuwait, he has only himself to blame for bringing about destruction to his people.

funny how easy it is to make decisions for others to make sacrifices, hilarious!

Are you telling me the Shias and Kurds would prefer to be under Saddam? Plenty of Shias got killed by the US and UK, but I don't hear them complaining about us getting rid of Saddam.

you cant blame the mess now on post war confusion, its been 4 friggin years, after year 1, things shouldve started to improve

It's been two years dumbass. Get your facts straight, and besides, rebuilding an entire nations infrastructure which is more equitable and not constructed in a way to ensure loyalty to the central government or Saddams cronies, is going to take alot of time.

Two years later and 300 Billion spent. With infastructure going backwards it seems almost blind to place the blame on Saddam.

300 billion? did you pull that one out of your behind? 300 billion maybe to supply the US/Coalition forces, but 30 Billion has been put aside for reconstruction, with only 8 billion being spent. I squarely put the blame on Saddam, he after the Gulf war had plenty of opportunity to rebuild the public services of the state, but chose instead to live in luxury whilst the people starved.

When you are sitting in 50 degree heat without electricity or clean running water, it is a little difficult to wish away the frustration and anger on the "at least we have freedom" line of argument

Tell that to Afghans.

yeah, and what freedom exactly? yea they voted, but untill american forces are there and they dont have an army of their own that they control, they are not free, they are occupied

How are they occupied? The Americans don't even control the political process, and hundreds of political parties were allowed to take formation and organise for the votes. Japan had an army which was defeated, so did Germany, and they became successful democracies, so don't give me that 'they don't have freedom because they're occupied' crap, because they have a damn sight more freedom than the previous regime could ever give them.

bush and right wing americans can exclaim the iraqis are free all they want, they can jump up and down while doing so, dosent change a damn thing

How do you know? Ever even tried to bother reading into Iraqi sentiment? You just want to see Iraq fail to say 'I told you so' to Bush and other percieved enemies of the former 'status quo' we enjoyed after the Cold War, times change, grow up. And if you do want to see Iraq fail, you're a mean spirited person who likes to see genocide.

are they free to be anti-american? what if they elected a guy whos only political issue he ran on was "america, get out" ?

This is the most hillarious part, Al Sadr is trying to form a political coalition with Sunnis to have a platform in the National Assembly doing just that, and if the Americans just wanted to stay, they could have them all shot or arrested. However they're not, and the fact that a leading Islamist party is in power in Iraq and is firmly allied with the US proves they have more choice and a voice than they did previously.

what if he, after wininning, said: america, get out! would you? of course not, us army takes their orders from washington, not from iraqis, democraticly elected or not!

:mischief: I think America at this point wants nothing more than to leave Iraq with a stable government and good military security.

freedom my ass

You have a very poor concept of freedom, is it that hard to comprehend the fact that we've done alot of good in Iraq, because the current president is right wing?
 
communism said:
http://timlambert.org/2005/05/gnfi/

As for the water situation? Most people get water, whereas some got none before.?

water problems didnt exist before the war in baghdad, now they do


communism said:
Oh right, because that's what I do right? You liberals, quick to make assumptions about everyone else, how tolerant. Prove to me that Iraqis aren't better off without Saddam. ?

no, obviously you read blogs and belive everything fox news tells you
i said a "credible" source

and no, you prove to me that iraqis are better off, i got 100,000 dead iraqis and god knows how many wounded and tortured that say otherwise, eintsein



communism said:
I don't watch fox news, and besides, Fox News allows a more balanced opinion than the likes of MSNBC and its Ilk. That's why it's the most watched TV News programme in the US.

were talking about the news channel that have claimed 17 times that WMD was found in iraq? if thats the best you got, then i pity you




communism said:
Saying it and actually proving it is a different thing altogether. And if it was so invested, he launched wars and invasions in which the state infrastructure was a bare minimum, and geared towards supplying his state terror apparatus.

Besides, I'm sure the Sunnis got excellent care and medical support, but I'm sure 80% of the non Sunnis (you know Shias and Kurds) got the bare minimum.?

aaah there you go pulling facts outta yer butt again, during the embargo, there was no medicin, so no one got medical treatment



communism said:
And who is to blame for that? You guessed it Saddam!

Because Saddam invaded Kuwait, he has only himself to blame for bringing about destruction to his people.

really? so a million iraqis dead during the embargo from lack of food and medicin, and its saddams fault? so what was their fault? they didnt suffer enough from having saddam, they had to die from starvation too? and no power and water? brilliant!




communism said:
Are you telling me the Shias and Kurds would prefer to be under Saddam? Plenty of Shias got killed by the US and UK, but I don't hear them complaining about us getting rid of Saddam.

well then maybe you need to have your ears checked? remember mehdi army? muqtada al sadr? no? then run along and do some more "research"



communism said:
It's been two years dumbass. Get your facts straight, and besides, rebuilding an entire nations infrastructure which is more equitable and not constructed in a way to ensure loyalty to the central government or Saddams cronies, is going to take alot of time?

dumbass? coming from a genius like you, you might say im a bit flattered :lol:
i was exaggerating

the unintentional comedy continues....


communism said:
300 billion? did you pull that one out of your behind? 300 billion maybe to supply the US/Coalition forces, but 30 Billion has been put aside for reconstruction, with only 8 billion being spent. I squarely put the blame on Saddam, he after the Gulf war had plenty of opportunity to rebuild the public services of the state, but chose instead to live in luxury whilst the people starved.

no obviously you pulled that outta your behind, cause i never said that

obviously you have something someone else said confused with what i said, but since were on this topic, im guessing your faux news didnt say jack crap about the missing iraq billions? shocking! :eek:




communism said:
Tell that to Afghans.?

its absolutely clear to me now that you dont have the first damn clue what youre talking about



communism said:
How are they occupied? The Americans don't even control the political process, and hundreds of political parties were allowed to take formation and organise for the votes. Japan had an army which was defeated, so did Germany, and they became successful democracies, so don't give me that 'they don't have freedom because they're occupied' crap, because they have a damn sight more freedom than the previous regime could ever give them.?

the political process dosent mean crap, without them controlling their armed forces and police, without those 2 to enforce their political decisions, they have 0 power, what part of that dont you understand?

and when i say theyre "occupied" that means their country is occupied by us forces, look that word up

true they are free to drink alcohol, but the most important thing, like what to do with their oil money and who gets to keep it, they have no power over
haliburton and bechtel decides that for them


communism said:
How do you know? Ever even tried to bother reading into Iraqi sentiment? You just want to see Iraq fail to say 'I told you so' to Bush and other percieved enemies of the former 'status quo' we enjoyed after the Cold War, times change, grow up. And if you do want to see Iraq fail, you're a mean spirited person who likes to see genocide.


what are you talking about exactly? iraqi sentiment?
im pretty sure those suicide bombers dont like you all that much
hell even your own government admitted over a year ago that the war for iraqis hearts and minds was lost, wild guess, you didnt see it on faux news?



communism said:
This is the most hillarious part, Al Sadr is trying to form a political coalition with Sunnis to have a platform in the National Assembly doing just that, and if the Americans just wanted to stay, they could have them all shot or arrested. However they're not, and the fact that a leading Islamist party is in power in Iraq and is firmly allied with the US proves they have more choice and a voice than they did previously.?

no the hilarious part is that you dont see the actual point, ill repeat it for you:
what if he won and then he said americans get out? would you? im guessing no, which means their government has 0 power

comprende? i doubt it..


communism said:
:mischief: I think America at this point wants nothing more than to leave Iraq with a stable government and good military security. ?

im thinking thats not gonna happen any time soon
:mischief: ? why :mischief: ? are you actually enjoying the stuff thats going on there? i wont ask you about iraqis, i bet you like to see them die but, you like to see americans blown up? what the hell is wrong with you?




communism said:
You have a very poor concept of freedom, is it that hard to comprehend the fact that we've done alot of good in Iraq, because the current president is right wing?

im thinking of all the good you did bombing the country to crap, and now youre gonna charge them top oil dollar to fix it again, if you ever do

im thinking of 100,000 iraqis dead, many more wounded
tons and tons of Depleted Uranium in their air and water, torture and rape in abu ghraib etc etc etc

very good :crazyeye:

what kind of bizarre parallel universe do you live in anyway? seriously, you gotta come up with something more intelligent to say if you want our little debate (now about to turn into flame war, thanks to your childish little insults) to continue, either grow up, or this is over
 
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