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Baking Cakes and Discrimination: Or, "What Would Jesus Do?"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cutlass, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    If the bakery belongs to some church the church has a bit of a problem. Operating a for profit bakery is hard to squeeze through the 401c3 process. Similarly, if he "registers his bakery as a religious institution"...wait, what exactly are you talking about there? What is this "registry" you are talking about?

    OHHHHH! I get it! You are basically just making up wild feces to support your "oh, we allow discrimination on religious grounds all the time" claim, which is patently false.

    Let me repeat, since you are apparently unfamiliar with US law: BUSINESSES are not allowed to operate on religious principles that violate the rights of customers.
     
  2. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I don't think the issue was selling a cake, it was decorating a wedding cake -- which is a piece of artwork. So they were commissioning a piece of art that would violate the baker's deeply held religious beliefs, and they were going to put it on display to rub his nose in it, so to speak. If they had asked for a plain cake and he refused service, then maybe they would have a legitimate case.

    Do you really want artists being forced by the government to produce works they find deeply offensive? How about a poem romanticizing the Holocaust? And force a Jewish poet to write it? (I think that's an apt analogy) And it better be good!!
     
  3. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    A church cannot operate a bakery in the US? Didn't know that.

    But fair enough. What about kosher and halal slaughterhouses? The US allows them to slaughter animals in cruel ways which are banned to non-religious slaughterhouses. Clearly they are for-profit businesses. So this is a case of an exception to the law being granted to businesses for religious reasons. And I don't think it's "less bad" than some baker not wanting to sell cakes with a "gay theme".
     
  4. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Indeed. If one needs a court order to force someone to bake them a cake, who would be brave enough to actually eat it?
    On the other hand; I can kind of understand wanting to get back at a particularly unlikeable bigot.
    At that point, the cake probably stops being an issue.
    You might be right, except that none of this means the baker was/is not a raging bigot.
    He was asked to bake a cake, not to bless their union.
     
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  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    This "artwork not product" argument is pretty good. I have to ask if you choked when you were typing "deeply held religious beliefs" though. The baker has deep political convictions under a thin veneer of religiosity, at best.

    The flaw in the argument is that I find it very unlikely that a survey of the bakery's previous customers would return a whole lot of "oh, yes, they made it clear that we were commissioning artwork, not buying a product" over "they are in the business of selling cakes, and we bought one...is there some question here?" Basically the same breakdown in the case as when the drugstore on the corner says "we didn't refuse him service because he was black, we refused service because he was wearing sandals that violated our safety policy" and you can provide an actual parade of white customers in similar sandals making purchases with no questions asked.


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    Moving on, since we are now in an actual thread on the topic, I have frequent conversations with my pastor regarding the hazards of 'ranking the sins.' I find that the deeply political with thin veneers of religion do this actively and shamelessly, but almost everyone is prone to it if they aren't vigilant. This is the typical ranking:

    Minor or petty sins: these are the ones the person doing the ranking is routinely asking forgiveness for in a somewhat casual fashion. In my case I make a pretty good stand for "it says not to bear false witness against another, and stretching a few details to make a more interesting story isn't 'false witness,' so if it is lying and a sin it isn't like a terrible one."

    Major sins: these are usually considered to be 'the big ten,' plus a handful of subsidiaries that are generally obvious derivatives, such as "I didn't kill him, I just beat him senseless" probably should be covered in a subsection, like commandment 6.1(a) or something. People are usually smug about having dodged most of these so they feel good even when they are admitting to a lot of their own brands of "petty" sins. Problem is that frequently their "clean slate" is more a lack of ability than any virtue on their part. "Well, *I* have never committed adultery" doesn't carry much weight coming from someone who looks like the underside of a snail and smells worse.

    Abominations: these, almost invariably, are sins that the person doing the ranking has not only never done, but they have the convenient advantage that they never wanted too anyway. Like when you meet the guy that thinks 'Do not covet thy neighbor's wife' is probably the most important commandment if you follow him to his house you will find out that he didn't even know that his neighbor the forest ranger was married, he thought the guy had brought home Smokey the Bear. And of course the average straight churchgoer is always willing to call a man lying with another man an unforgivable abomination and probably the worst sin of them all.

    Here's the thing...sin is sin, and we all suffer from being sinful. The gospel doesn't say that Christ was crucified as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of some sins, and some are okay, and others beyond his reach. Sin is sin, and the only ones I need to worry about are my own...whether I could convince myself that they are 'petty' or not.
     
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  6. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

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    Yeah. For instance, gluttony is one of the mortal sins, afaik.
    I somehow doubt the bakery in question refused service to overweight people.
     
  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I wanted a quote where Jesus says something that would invalidate gay marriage. You so far have not provided.

    They care because the primitive Old Testament god was a raging homophobe, but here's the thing: there's no actual indication that Jesus was.

    Again, this is just fantastically stupid. Like, one of the stupidest assertions I've ever read on the internet, which is really saying something.
     
  8. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    whomp whomp
     
  9. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    You are missing the not-a-sin-at-all category for purported sins that have been argued away (with varying degrees of reason).

    I agree that the temptation of the ranker to do the sins he is ranking plays a major role in the outcome. But I think, there is also a large cultural component. If you look at different Christian (sub-) cultures, the "commonly accepted" rankings have huge differences in how they classify a particular sin. This is influenced by the (religious) tradition, the secular culture and, at worst, politics. An example is the consumption of alcohol which can range from not-a-sin-at all to abomination even within the same denomination depending on where you are.
     
  10. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I do not think there is any biblical justification for the 7 deadly sins. They came somewhat later.
     
  11. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    This thread is interesting

    That is the quote I keep hearing that is used for justification but reading this thread, it seems that it's not even a direct quote from the bible.
     
  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    He can't be. He's already said he's happy to sell them or anyone else cakes out the whazzoo. He has refused to design, decorate, and sell a gay-wedding-themed cake*. It seems legally relevant, since now the question is if he can be compelled to choose between not designing and selling any cakes at all, or designing and selling anything the state informs him is a compel-able artistic/social theme(since I'm assuming the courts wouldn't compel him to design and sell a happy-gas-chamber-anniversary cake, if he originally agreed to design a red-white-and-black themed cake, as an example).

    Have to admit, the trans lawyer very carefully laid out her legal trap for her hated social foe.

    *Or, as is now relevant again, a coming-out-of-the-closet-as-trans cake. Basically the same question, different social celebration.

    Try not to propagate that myth please. Not sure about halal since I haven't researched it, but the best academic research I've found on types of kosher beef slaughter ranks it as high quality humane when(you have to assume this in every single operation regardless of type or who) administered up to standard. The primary exceptions to animal slaughter methodology are for mom and pop operations, since transport to, from, and the processing fee at, along with minimimum order size - of accredited and inspected slaughter facilities(may not actually be that many in your state) absolutely breaks their ability to function at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  13. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I'm not so sure God has a rating system. Any sin, even what we would call little ones are an affront to His holiness. I don't really care what sins you commit; I have my own to worry about. But don't ask (or in this case, compel) me to condone or celebrate yours.
     
  14. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Maybe the baker would be happy for other people not to bake a cake for him if they didn't want to?
     
  15. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Meh, I'd say fine, don't sell me the cake and take my business elsewhere. Then practice my free speech letting the world know the baker is a bigot. He's only going to hurt his own business with this stuff. The majority of Americans and even some Christians are fine with the existence of gay marriage and equality. This kind of foolish bigotry on the part of the Church is exactly why it is hemorrhaging membership.

    The Church will have to adjust to modern values just like it's done many times throughout history or it will die out.
     
  16. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Out of all the bakeries in Colorado, a lawyer sought his bakery out to design a trans "coming out" cake. Does this not sound like a setup to you? It couldn't be just a birthday cake.
     
  17. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Normally I would agree with this, but back in the days if someone had done it to blacks, his majority equally bigoted neighbors would have flocked to his store. So you have to draw a line sometimes.
     
  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Of course it sounds like a setup to me. The lawyer got the bigot dead to rights.
     
  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Well, she also made sure to request a color-themed cake first to get his agreement, and then let the baker know what the celebration was for as well as why the colors were as such("to symbolize that gender is not determined by God"), before he actually produced the cake, knowing that he would balk, and the case could be forwarded to the Colorado Human Rights Commission, where he was ordered to produce it. The question isn't if she knew she was trapping him, she obviously did, the question is if she's allowed to force him to bake the cake. Welcome to The Law.

    Morality exists outside the law, whether it's figuring out how much you can maximize profits for a life-saving-but-patented heart valve at the cost of life, how "threatening" the black guy has to be before you can kill him, or what sort of social interaction you can deliberately mock somebody's religion at, or when beating somebody up becomes "hate" instead of profit-motivated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  20. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I think she's the bigot.
     

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