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Baking Cakes and Discrimination: Or, "What Would Jesus Do?"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cutlass, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Hmm, ya know, Jesus sided with the prostitute yet the Religious Right doesn't seem to take kindly to Sex Workers. Jesus was also killed by politicians yet they worship them pretty good.

    The correct answer is Jesus would most certainly ask that they bake the cake. The condemnation of homosexuality largely occurs in the Old Testament, the same book that assumes if a woman is in a certain spot she must have not called for helped and should be killed. Oh yea, and pay some dowry because property damage. In the New Testament, there's some from Paul, but that guy had way too much clout (A lot of the New Testament is dominated him.... hmm, and he seems to speak for Jesus). Honestly, if you read deeper past the first 5 chapters, Paul's writings feel like a Marty Stu self-insert fanfic.

    See, there was a reason why he always hung out with the less privileged and the outcasts, and was somewhat of one himself. The obsession with the earthly world and wealth, well, you read the Bible right? Those were the morally inferior people. But now we have this Protestant capitalistic revisionism worshiping conformity and materialism.

    But on the other hand,that does bring up a sling of questions. What if I went to the Christian bakery and asked for a cake and I don't believe in God? Well, if it's just a cake, I don't see why they should get to know about my religious beliefs. But, what if I bought the cake because I want to celebrate my friend no longer being religious, and wanted to write "God is dead" on the cake? I'm sure there are places that would do it for me, but I mean, should I insist on doing it when they're clearly labeling themselves as a Christian bakery?

    Now, honestly, I think when people reference the Bible, they don't even really know about it. I mean the book also condones killing people for working on Sunday (or was it Saturday?), but uhh. ... pretty sure that shouldn't be taken seriously. But on the other hand, I see doing business with people as a two way street. Of course, if they should continue to be unfair to me, I will be complaining to certain people....
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    What if you own the bus? Here's the problem, the 1st Amendment protects speech and religion even when its offensive. Can neo-Nazis sue Jewish bakers who refuse to serve them with cakes glorifying their ideology? If you make an exception for the Jewish bakers then you are deciding which speech (expression) or religion is to be protected or not protected based on the message. The 1st Amendment is supposed to protect all messages, especially the offensive ones.
     
  3. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I mean, I'm perfectly fine with restrictions on freedom of expression if the message a customer is asking for on a product would be considered deeply offensive to the person providing the product, and any expressive value the product has is substantially outweighed by the deep offensiveness.
    In other words, the cake maker would be fully within his right to refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it, but suck it up and make a wedding cake.
     
  4. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    During the days of the draft, Amish, Hutterites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, Baha'i, and many (but not all) types of Pantheists were imprisoned for resisting mandatory military service for decades. The conscientious objector status was a very recent innovation, relatively speaking.
     
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  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Speaking of your continuous failures at good faith debate, here we see your usual false equivalence on display. If the Jewish baker regularly makes cakes "glorifying ideologies" but refuses to do so for Nazis, then you have a valid comparison. However, the baker who regularly makes and sells wedding cakes and is refusing to perform the same service they routinely perform is what is being discussed here.

    I still can't decide if you already knew that, and are intentionally arguing in bad faith, or if you genuinely don't know and it's just accidental.
     
  6. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    comparing gay people to neo nazis

    what won't you do
     
  7. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Thats Right Neo Nazis are fine people, unlike the Jews /s
    In fact the US ARMED forces should allow Nazi swastikas and Waffen SS runes to be proudly displayed because you know discrimination /s

    Freedom of speech dosnt include the right to spread ideological hatred, violence and terror.
     
  8. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Considered by whom? If its the baker I'd agree.

    I dont know why you inserted 'however' into that, you just repeated yourself. The baker wasn't sued for refusing to sell a cake, he was sued for not "glorifying" gay marriage with his artwork.

    Jesus... I'm comparing popular speech with unpopular speech. Thats why I chose neo-Nazis, they're our test for the 1st Amendment, not speakers you like. If we're debating constitutional rights and a lawyer said murderers get due process too, would you accuse the lawyer of comparing murderers to the rest of us?

    If neo-Nazis cant sue a Jewish baker for refusing them a cake because their message offends the baker, then gays cant sue a baker who doesn't believe in gay marriage. You dont get to decide when the baker should or shouldn't be offended. What if this same baker refused neo-Nazis a cake? Would you do a 180 and support the baker? Yeah, the 1st Amendment is neutral about the message, it isn't your personal fiefdom where our speech has to meet with your approval.

    Doesn't matter if they're fine people, they have the same rights as you. Antifa got violent and ideological hatred is spewed on this forum every day. Trump would love your definition of free speech, he could shut down dissent while wrapping himself in the flag.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    If you are going to misrepresent things that you quote, please quote your usual right wing echo chamber sources rather than quoting me. Darn near every one of your posts is a whopping lie and we have to put up with that, but misrepresenting what was said in a post that you quote is so blatantly obvious that it just makes you look silly.
     
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  10. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Because Moses and Mohamed were big fans of gays? :lol:
     
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  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    How did I misrepresent your post?
     
  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Dunno. I like the cut of this on it's face, but I'm not sure it holds up. It's 2018, and corporations are literally people. The last grocery stores(of the bad, not mobile, not enlightened by virtue of proximity, masses) struggle vs Dollar General and food deserts settle across the land. Direct business farmers? Are those still a thing? They tried for a long time. Corporations don't age, just their constituate organs, the mortal can't compete. The state takes it's pounds here, and it takes them there. Functionally, I think this statement is very well a lethal state enforced backhand. Tricky maybe, lawyerly maybe, but different? Not?
     
  13. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    Liberals are the REAL Nazis.
     
  14. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    I mean what really IS the difference between the Einheitsfrontlied and the Horst Wessel Lied
     
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  15. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    If you oppose racial discrimination, then you're the real racist.
    If you oppose discrimination on religious grounds, then your a bigot
    If you oppose attempts at making the nation racially and ideologically pure, then your a Nazi.
     
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  16. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Typically.
     
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  17. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I have pretty acerbic and cynical views when it comes to the Abrahamic faiths and the culture it created around our understanding of homosexuality. Because the Bible is open to interpretation

    Note that this passage is in Matthew, but not in Mark or Luke, so it could very easily be a later 'realization' by the author of Matthew. But the sentence "not everyone can receive this saying" is telling, because I think it is very obvious that there are subset of a the sexual spectrum that very much cannot marry the other sex. It would be a lie. But I see no tolerance for homosexual sex in Jesus's teachings.

    The bible is one of the greatest sources of libel against God I've ever seen. The idea that "God ordered the murder of gay people" is one of its lies.

    Then you run into the subset: some businesses are forced to take on business licenses that result in a unique mixture of responsibilities and protections. It seems to then but up against the freedom to both disciminate AND sell your craft at the same time.
     
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  18. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    He said marriage is between man and wife, male and female, 2 become 1, just as it was in the beginning. I dont know how to read that to include other forms of marriage, even polygamy which was widely practiced is outside his definition. That doesn't mean Jesus cared if gays or polygamists were married much less supported legal sanction against them, but it does mean his followers may have second thoughts about offering endorsements by their participation. The baker was in that position, he was okay selling the cake but he didn't want to decorate it with blessings and art because he considered that an endorsement.

    Liberals are fine people, they protect free speech and religion

    You post insults and accusations and then run away complaining about the lack of good faith
     
  19. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_the_centurion's_servant

    If the theory's right Jesus praised the faith of a gay centurion and healed his possibly under aged sex slave. Well, under aged by our standards.

    Seems like an end run around religious freedom. Can he be denied other protections?
     
  20. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Where did I complain about your perpetual failure to argue in good faith? I merely pointed out that people who argue in good faith have long since lost interest in you, which is why the only attention you get is people who use you for a verbal punching bag. That's not a complaint. The world needs punching bags.
     

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