Balance Factors

[Noriad2]

I think I know why the money is more plentiful than ever. Inflation is still at zero at mid-ancient.

A long time ago, inflation rose with the turn number. This was a bad idea, because tech speed can vary between games. Inflation became like a wave that was following you. If you outrun it (i.e. fast enough tech) you get the additional buildings to increase money income and pay off the inflation. If your tech however was too slow, you'd be forced to build Wealth to compensate for the inflation, which slows down your tech even more. So once you get swallowed by the inflation wave you won't get out of it anymore and your game is ruined.

A better solution would be to link inflation to certain key technologies. Once you hit one of those technologies, inflation is increased by a set amount. If your game is generally slow tech, inflation slows down too, so it is much easier to balance than automatically rising inflation based on the date. Perhaps link inflation to techs that give important better units? To balance out the military benefits.

Note that I have "advanced economy" off as I remember it was flawed and thus not recommended. Can't remember why anymore.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes, but only that which applies. It's not giving WFL bonuses if WFL is not on, for example. The wording is delivered through python so I didn't have as much programming skill to vary the message so just said the difference between normal and adjusted accounts for both, which basically it does, regardless of which it is or both. Basically it just determines (Actual amount you are receiving in total - amount it would be without TD and/or WFL) and delivers that as TD&WFL amount.

For the record, I did not address this side of it nor do I dispute what you have amplified. But what I posted is not wrong either.

 

[Thunderbrd]

For the record, I did not address this side of it nor do I dispute what you have amplified. But what I posted is not wrong either.

I meant no accusation.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Don't dist to palace and num cities depend on difficulty level? So you can increase these and perhaps other throttles on gold for higher difficulty level without penalizing the AI.

You will need to ask either raxo, Toffer, or T-brd about that. I'm only working on the Civics atm. There have been a multitude of changes to Handicaps, Eras, and other related areas over the past year plus. And not done by me I will add. So I have not been keeping track of those changes as close as I used to do.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I meant no accusation.

Understood. My reply to Noriad was brief and not detailed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

        <HandicapInfo>
            <Type>HANDICAP_SETTLER</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER</Description>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER_HELP</Help>
            <iAdvancedStartPointsMod>160</iAdvancedStartPointsMod>
            <iGold>32</iGold>
            <iFreeUnits>36</iFreeUnits>
            <iUnitCostPercent>40</iUnitCostPercent>
            <iTrainPercent>40</iTrainPercent>
            <iConstructPercent>40</iConstructPercent>
            <iResearchPercent>40</iResearchPercent>
            <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>40</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
            <iMaxColonyMaintenance>80</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
            <iDistanceMaintenancePercent>40</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
            <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>40</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
            <iColonyMaintenancePercent>40</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
            <iCorporationMaintenancePercent>40</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>

It looks like it IS possible to enhance the severity of quite a few maintenance factors by difficulty. Could be a good idea to strengthen the range from lower to higher difficulties on these. Something to take some care with so let's not look at that til after release please.

 

[JosEPh_II]

        <HandicapInfo>
            <Type>HANDICAP_SETTLER</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER</Description>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER_HELP</Help>
            <iAdvancedStartPointsMod>160</iAdvancedStartPointsMod>
            <iGold>32</iGold>
            <iFreeUnits>36</iFreeUnits>
            <iUnitCostPercent>40</iUnitCostPercent>
            <iTrainPercent>40</iTrainPercent>
            <iConstructPercent>40</iConstructPercent>
            <iResearchPercent>40</iResearchPercent>
            <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>40</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
            <iMaxColonyMaintenance>80</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
            <iDistanceMaintenancePercent>40</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
            <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>40</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
            <iColonyMaintenancePercent>40</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
            <iCorporationMaintenancePercent>40</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>

It looks like it IS possible to enhance the severity of quite a few maintenance factors by difficulty. Could be a good idea to strengthen the range from lower to higher difficulties on these. Something to take some care with so let's not look at that til after release please.

I see that Handicaps does not include 2 tags that Civics can use in conjunction with D to P and Num Cities Maint. tags. Here are those extra tags that I make use of in the Civics because DtP and NumCities get/are over used.
<iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>

And these tags have a much bigger bite. So must be used sparingly, especially in later Eras when Empires are fleshed out. DtP and NumCities were over worked in Civics before I started to use these other 2. They (DtP and NumCities) also are not as effective overall as these other 2.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I see that Handicaps does not include 2 tags that Civics can use in conjunction with D to P and Num Cities Maint. tags. Here are those extra tags that I make use of in the Civics because DtP and NumCities get/are over used.
<iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>

And these tags have a much bigger bite. So must be used sparingly, especially in later Eras when Empires are fleshed out. DtP and NumCities were over worked in Civics before I started to use these other 2. They (DtP and NumCities) also are not as effective overall as these other 2.

I could not find those two on the Civ IV Modiki page for Civics. Are they ours? Do they mean what I think i.e.

• Home Area = Continent you are on
  
• Other Area = everywhere else?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I see that Handicaps does not include 2 tags that Civics can use in conjunction with D to P and Num Cities Maint. tags. Here are those extra tags that I make use of in the Civics because DtP and NumCities get/are over used.
<iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>x</iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>

And these tags have a much bigger bite. So must be used sparingly, especially in later Eras when Empires are fleshed out. DtP and NumCities were over worked in Civics before I started to use these other 2. They (DtP and NumCities) also are not as effective overall as these other 2.

Traits don't use those either. I think these were added by firaxis when they developed the colonization dynamic. Maybe it comes from a mod but if it does it's pre C2C I believe.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I could not find those two on the Civ IV Modiki page for Civics. Are they ours? Do they mean what I think i.e.

• Home Area = Continent you are on
  
• Other Area = everywhere else?

Yes they do what you think. I have now been using them since I started the Civic rebalancing. Actually I found them After SO did his last Civic changes almost 2+ years ago that we had to make some necessary adjustments to. And back then did a small run of tests to se their effectiveness in Maint cost and reducing runaway Gold. They are very effective.

In the early era when empires are starting they have to be either low or unused. But by the time tribalism hits (real expansion starts) then they can become a very useful tool. Especially on the Gov't., Power, and Society Civics. Later they can become useful on Currency and several others.

When you look at the Civics Screen you can see where and on what Civics I have them working on now in the early Civics of all categories..

Traits don't use those either. I think these were added by firaxis when they developed the colonization dynamic. Maybe it comes from a mod but if it does it's pre C2C I believe.

I don't know the when or how they were added to the Mod or even BtS. But I do know they have lain dormant for a long long time in this Mod.

EDIT: I will say this that we in C2C have done massive overuses of Distance to Palace and Number of Cities Maint modifiers. Almost to the point of having to have staggeringly high values to make changes noticeable because of the way they are used In the HandicapInfos xml for example, imho that is.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes they do what you think. I have now been using them since I started the Civic rebalancing. Actually I found them After SO did his last Civic changes almost 2+ years ago that we had to make some necessary adjustments to. And back then did a small run of tests to se their effectiveness in Maint cost and reducing runaway Gold. They are very effective.

In the early era when empires are starting they have to be either low or unused. But by the time tribalism hits (real expansion starts) then they can become a very useful tool. Especially on the Gov't., Power, and Society Civics. Later they can become useful on Currency and several others.

When you look at the Civics Screen you can see where and on what Civics I have them working on now in the early Civics of all categories..


I don't know the when or how they were added to the Mod or even BtS. But I do know they have lain dormant for a long long time in this Mod.

EDIT: I will say this that we in C2C have done massive overuses of Distance to Palace and Number of Cities Maint modifiers. Almost to the point of having to have staggeringly high values to make changes noticeable because of the way they are used In the HandicapInfos xml for example, imho that is.

I think they were added by Afforess way back in the beginning of C2C. I expect they would have been added to give some control over the whole Colony mechanism. Running cities on another continent is expensive but if you can turn them into a Colony the expense goes. Pity they (Firaxis) used the second age of Colonization as their model, rather than the metal age version.

 

[Thunderbrd]

EDIT: I will say this that we in C2C have done massive overuses of Distance to Palace and Number of Cities Maint modifiers. Almost to the point of having to have staggeringly high values to make changes noticeable because of the way they are used In the HandicapInfos xml for example, imho that is.

And yet it's still so hard to overspread your cities... Back in Vanilla if I spammed 5 cities as soon as I could I'd choke off my economy so bad I'd fall an era behind. Part of the issue is that new cities in C2C have a LOT more ability to produce gold than in Vanilla. That has to be compensated for.

I'm just talking here, projecting a sense of values - just to say those are supposed to really limit you hard. I really don't know right now how current economic values are faring throughout gameplay as I haven't had much time lately to play, unfortunately.

I think they were added by Afforess way back in the beginning of C2C

Which would mean when he was developing for AND. I don't think he ever did any direct work on C2C did he? Except to help Koshling sort out a DLL that distinguishes between the two.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Which would mean when he was developing for AND. I don't think he ever did any direct work on C2C did he? Except to help Koshling sort out a DLL that distinguishes between the two.

Not really, it was before the split happened.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not really, it was before the split happened.

Which would make it AND. When we started C2C, if you remember, it was in part because Afforess had stopped working on AND (You, Hydro and SO, and Joe in his way had started a few weeks before I jumped in to contribute to discussions). He did come back to work here for a bit with Koshling during my long break after Divine Prophets so I suppose he could've worked on C2C directly some then, but I've never seen it.

He returned for a bit to work on some debugging between our mods, then got frustrated when he found out steam wouldn't let him debug in the code properly and has been seen only infrequently since.

 

[JosEPh_II]

And yet it's still so hard to overspread your cities... Back in Vanilla if I spammed 5 cities as soon as I could I'd choke off my economy so bad I'd fall an era behind. Part of the issue is that new cities in C2C have a LOT more ability to produce gold than in Vanilla. That has to be compensated for.

Does not mean DtP and NumCities overuse is the only way to do it either. Now does it.

You don't seem to remember my talking about these 2 tags back when I started redoing the Civics. I told you then I could really clamp down on early expansion and Gold if we wanted to be that strict about it with these tools in Civics alone. Your reply was that this was good to hear but basically don't go overboard. Prudence.

Now we have Noriad back playing (good thing!) and he feels the early Preh is too strict. When in fact it's really not. The release gate is Tribalism, which Noriad acknowledged, that once achieved it became much easier to amass gold and every thing else. Now the question is Why is it all seemingly released at Tribalism? I can tell you one major reason. By the time you reach Tribalism only 6 Civic choices are unlocked, Then at Tribalism 3 get unlocked. Tribal in Society, Tribal Warfare in Military and Communal in Workforce. The 6 prior to Tribalism have been slowly chipping away at the initial Civic in critical Categories that throttle down the early game thru their usually massive and necessary restrictions. (Don't want size 20 cities Before tribalism now do we?!) Then you get the 1st cluster at Tribalism itself, 3 major early Civics that change the playing field because now expansion is unleashed. And you have increased your Civic choices from 6 to 9. 33 % more choices.

By the time you get to Agriculture start of Ancient era 4 more Civic choice are available. Garbage - Burn, Religion - Divine Cult, and Gov't - Chiefdom, all before Sed Life and then Small Holding - Agriculture at Agriculture tech. All 4 open new doors and relieve pressure from early and initial Civics in those respective categories. Followed quickly by Caste - Society or is it Power, any way, then Trade, Bronze Working and/or then Writing (whichever one you choose to go for 1st Bronze Working or Writing). All these are powerful Civic changes.

My initial changes have only made it into the Classical Era Civic choices with a touch to a couple in Med Era that really stood out. But the point is this mapping out of when and which Civics are made available reveals much about the loosening of some restrictions while starting to impose new ones and making choices for the path you want to pursue. They also reveal means to clamp down or loosen the results of all the new buildings and city growth now becoming available. And a means to curb excesses in all major categories of game play components ie .

And it's still a major work in progress.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Does not mean DtP and NumCities overuse is the only way to do it either. Now does it.

No but it's the most direct response to city growth you can set.

You don't seem to remember my talking about these 2 tags back when I started redoing the Civics. I told you then I could really clamp down on early expansion and Gold if we wanted to be that strict about it with these tools in Civics alone. Your reply was that this was good to hear but basically don't go overboard. Prudence.

As always. I suppose what is overboard to one and prudence to another can be a subject of disagreement but I am not trying to state any known disagreements with your views or settings. I think we generally want similar outcomes - I just really appreciated how restrained you had to be in CivIV growth as opposed to Civ I-III where the game was really a tiresome race to spreading as fast as possible. I was fine with that until CivIV showed me how much more fun it could be to ask the player to find just the right balance rather than figuring out all possible ways to spread faster further farther as quickly as you could. I'm sure you appreciate that as well at this point. I know I'm preaching to the choir - I was really initially just answering to the question that came up as to how much it could vary by difficulty, finding that it CAN and does vary quite a bit already by that, and maybe, since it's been suggested by a master level player, there could be some merit to expanding it a little. Whether by difficulty level or civics, I leave to someone like you who is paying more attention to those current values that I am. This is all just game theory discussion, not instruction or demands or even criticisms.

Now we have Noriad back playing (good thing!) and he feels the early Preh is too strict. When in fact it's really not.

Good explanation of your take on it. I know we've also changed a lot about how expensive techs and buildings are at the beginning and we've done a lot to achieve a feeling of really having to struggle to make forward progress at the beginning. I think that's an appropriate thing to be feeling as a player at first too. I was wondering if some of his frustration was coming from those adjustments to build costs and tech costs as well.

That said, when a Nightmare player is saying he's having no gold struggles in the later prehistoric, maybe we're letting those first achievement civics at tribalism loosen the screws a bit too much? Again, haven't experienced it too recently so I can't say for sure, just going off the impression he's giving of his experience.

 

[JosEPh_II]

That said, when a Nightmare player is saying he's having no gold struggles in the later prehistoric, maybe we're letting those first achievement civics at tribalism loosen the screws a bit too much? Again, haven't experienced it too recently so I can't say for sure, just going off the impression he's giving of his experience.

It is valued feedback. And is basically conformation of what I already knew for that timeframe of game play.

Also the 3 sweeping changes that raxo did to buildings in general ( ) are also still being evaluated. And by that very nature has changed how much impact the Early Civic changes have now on current gameplay. So my 1st and even 2nd changes to these early Civics are under review again. And as such have impeded the Civic evaluation process and changes planned for Civics introduced from Classical thru Med Eras. This is why I've not committed any recent Civic updates. This information is for those wondering what the hold up is on this area.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It is valued feedback. And is basically conformation of what I already knew for that timeframe of game play.

Also the 3 sweeping changes that raxo did to buildings in general ( ) are also still being evaluated. And by that very nature has changed how much impact the Early Civic changes have now on current gameplay. So my 1st and even 2nd changes to these early Civics are under review again. And as such have impeded the Civic evaluation process and changes planned for Civics introduced from Classical thru Med Eras. This is why I've not committed any recent Civic updates. This information is for those wondering what the hold up is on this area.

Yeah, I suspected some of that was also a culprit in some sections.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So I got in and played some since the discussion here was on research progression at the very beginning.

I feel like Noriad's evaluation is right. The balance between production and tech achievement at the opening of the game is such that you do run out of things to build (even useful units) rather easily and if it wasn't for a LONG wonder build, I could really be sitting here idling or investing into culture. The amount of turns to reach a tech is quite long even for the gamespeed I'm on.

It wasn't quite this severe previously. There are not enough buildings yet to see much reasoning in it from that. I have 13 myths and am still only getting +13 research a round in total. Now... all that said, the research rates in the earliest portion of the game probably did need some nerfing, but I do think we've gone too far. Looking through the civics, most of them inflict -5% research to all cities and/or capital and some even have both, which the capital, being the only city, is impacted by. Then you have a few giving +1% research and +3% research. Which is kinda funny with all these -5%s.

I'd urge a little more playtesting on that Joseph. If you want to nerf those penalties on the initial civics just a little, I'd back that, even though we're under a freeze still. I can't package yet anyhow since I still get thousands of errors on the VS setup.

 

[raxo2222]

I can't package yet anyhow since I still get thousands of errors on the VS setup.

Looks like @Anq murdered your VS setup.

Maybe he should revert all those changes, that he did to files used by VS?