Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.
Please post any balance concerns you may have in this thread.
Claimed for future use.
Feel free to post after this point.
Some quick, early impressions:
The Lanun workboat needs to be a bit cheaper. A worker costs 75, but the Lanun boat costs 90. Seems a bit wrong especially since its use is limited without having to build fishing boats all along the coast.
Kelp and Reef movement costs are way too high. They have 5 and 6 movement requirements and fill up entire coastlines making travel by foot faster than by boat, which makes navies even more pointless than they already are.
Improvement buildtimes feel very large. Even with industrious workers and agriculture, a farm took around 14 turns. This means a player needs more workers just to get started. This feels bad combined with the larger unhealthiness penalty because the first city cannot grow to a reasonable size fast enough to make enough workers to improve the land in a reasonable time. The early game feels very slow and incredibly boring waiting for your size 2 city to crank out a worker off unimproved tiles, then have that worker try to make a farm in 14 turns, so that your city can have a chance to grow again (all the while retreating to the city to hide from barbs).
Not sure about that; You are able to improve all your sea resources, and build Pirate Harbors, without needing multiple units.
They will likely be reduced.
They may come down some. Upgrading your workers is important now, though... And there is a module I'll be making that will change the way you upgrade workers.
The health changes have.. badly affected some balance. A forced reliance on healers makes luonnatar completely out of reach, with even a shrine being difficult. The damage that this is going to do to a specialist economy is.. unparralled. Also, many civilizations have mechanics which grant happiness, such as the baalseraph, or any civ running Order, who now will be unable to grow at all beyond the regular civilizations.
In addition expansive has gone from being the red headed step child of traits to.. bar none the strongest trait.
Never thought i'd see the day where i'd look at the lanun and say and not want to play Hannah.
I realize that you both wished to distinguish youself from orbis, however the approach taken in orbis to limiting city size was far less game breaking. |(And I disliked that as well) If the city size was truly an issue, why not simply remove the truly excessive amounts of food from various improvements?
The "truly excessive amounts of food from various improvements" have been reduced as well.
What could be done besides other planned balancing, is to increase the priest & great prophet health bonuses.
Researching the White Hand (WH) religion needs Priesthood, not really a balance issue more chicken & egg.
As Illians I Had Letum Frigus next to my capital (once I WB it back in) the random free xp barbs it spawns seems inappropriate somehow. I have a couple of ideas:
Illians/Doviello get unique fort from capturing it, upgrades to unique citadel only with WH.
Illians can settle on the tile, which looses the Feature & Ice Mana but gains a WW that provides Ice Mana, some culture & happiness. This could then Upgrade to be a mini citadel of the hand at WH. The Auric Ascended ritual (or all the Illians rituals) could get a boost, say 10%, from it too.
D'Tesh commanders are invisible, and still build forts in 3 turns on marathon.
There's more or less no way any other civ can compete with them splattering crypts all over the landscape on marathon, particularly given D'Tesh can build them all around their capitals and set them to autofire flay.
Maybe a bug rather than balance, but are D'Teshi recon units supposed to be able to get blood promotions from animals? Are they supposed to be able to get all of them on the same unit ?
I play the Illians a lot so I thought I'd chime in. WH coming after priesthood gives you a nice buffer zone to get to it first, since the Illians can found it at philosophy with their ritual.
Yeah, the barb spawn seems a bit stupid if you're the Illians(or Doviello). I remember sticking a city near the fringes one game. It was pretty well shielded by my other cities, so I figured I could get away with waiting a few turns to put a unit there. Barb spawn and I was working on a new settler.
I would like to see the frigus give a bonus to the Illians other than Agg and Ice Mana. Maybe a racial +2 for the Illians and Doviello.
The prisoners you get from lairs are probably a bit much, especially if ancient ruins are on. Having fire II/death II sorcerer pop up in the first 20 turns is pretty game breaking, and the assassin is not a lot better.
I recommend no one use healers right now (unless you want Great healers). They just aren't worth it. Want proof? Fine.
Assume a city is making excess food and is unhealthy by a large amount (>3). Its net food will be [F = food, P = pop, U = unhealth] F - 2P - U = x
The same city decides to switch a citizen away from being a sage and become a healer. Its net food will be F - 2P - (U-3) = x, which becomes F - 2P - U = x +3.
A net gain of 3 food, great right? I suppose, but the same can be gained by working a 3 food tile, which also will give you a commerce since it will be most likely riverside, and once 4 food tiles become available with sanitation, healers are even less attractive. Healers also pollute the very important GPP, which is terrible unless you want Great Healers (which a specialist economy can't really afford).
If you really want to force people to get healers, then buff them to make them a more attractive choice. Still sucks for SE since they will have to run some healers which both lowers their science output and pollutes their GPP. I predict SEs being very weak in the near future.
Also, I still think the Lanun workboat should be dropped to 75 hammers. It is basically a worker for the sea, so it should be priced accordingly.
you seem to forget that ce has exactly the same problem. a cottagegrassland has 2 food so its a -2 as one pop takes 4 food. but SE has superspecialists who dont need food.
the same thing you say about healers is the same for every specialist. scientists are inferior to cottages, engineers to mines, merchants to cottages, medics to farms.
IMO you should add unhealth to the whole metal/engineering line. this would weaken the overly strong techchoice of melee units and solve a bit of the unhealth problem
Even worse... lets say instead of creating a Healer, you simply let the city starve itself to 1 size smaller (basically losing the Sage/Healer from your example.
Thus its food requirement reduces by 2, and its unhealth reduces by 2, giving you:
F - 2(P-1) - (U-2) = x + 4. So a Healer is worse than starving the city 1 level, unless you want Great Healers.
Yes specialist are inferior to tiles, but the supposed bonus is in the Great people. But if I run specialists instead of the stronger tiles AND get crappy great people then SE won't survive. CE tiles pay for themselves food wise which means they are making more net food than an equivalent SE city, this either lets them grow or helps pay for the unhealth both cities are raking up.
LOL, that never occurred to me. So unless you have an excess food gain of 4 or greater, don't increase city size. Incredible...
one great physician grants 6 additional food. this is 3 more cottages in mixed economy. your calculations are pretty useless as you ignore most of the aspects
Great Physicians are worth having Healers.
What *could* be done is give the Healer +1 research, maybe +2 from the Great Phy... Or simply +1 happy from the Great Phy.
However, I really don't see what's wrong. I've been playing with such a change for weeks now and I never found it unplayable
The thing is if you start taking Great Physician into account things get even worse. A CE can run 1 healer and then later get a Great Physician with no detriment to their overall gameplan. A SE runs a healer, get a Great Physician, and is behind on science output because he didn't get a Great Sage to make up for not running off tiles for all those turns.
a ce neither gets that sage. ce needs more time to procude great persons so the sage is delayed even more in that case.
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