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Balance Feedback

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Sarisin

    Sarisin Deity

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    I agree with you that there are certainly better options than building Fawns and view them as perhaps the weakest 'religion-based' unit you can build.

    However, I always try to build one and use it for sure victories, cleaning up units that flee (still a bit too much of THAT going on IMO), etc. to gain XP because, as mentioned, it is nice to be able to have at least one Satyr. I think they had the Dominate spell too, didn't they?
     
  2. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Giving more health/food to forests/elves/ancient forests defeat the purpose of smallering their cities.

    What we want for them is not to have ultra-big cities when running FoL. You people are saying the Mazatl and the Cualli are overpowered, it would be the same, but for elves. So why would it be okay for them but not for the lizards?

    The other thing is we want FoL to be viable for other civs as well, right? So basically, elves should perform better with FoL, but they shouldn't be the only one able to perform well with FoL.

    The elves have a great boon: they can build and maintain forests. It's broken for now but it will be fixed.

    The issue of other civs is that they can't do that. Adopting FoL is kinda shooting oneself in the foot...

    So, seems like the automatic terraforming from FoL is the problem. Why not make it so other civs can build into forests/ancient forests? That way it would become viable for everyone.

    (How that should be done, I don't know; maybe through a civic or just by adopting FoL)

    Then giving enhanced yields from forests/ancient forests for the elves would make them perform better.
     
  3. jacktannery

    jacktannery Prince

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    It is not the case that all non-elven civs are bad at running FoL. My doviello are very well suited to it, and having a non-elven civ running FoL means that fawns are a very powerful and useful unit (free Woodman II). My FoL powered doviello economy running GoN is very powerful indeed with camps (buildable on Ancient forests) upgrading naturally to yarangas. Not OP, just right.

    A few balance queries regarding the DOVIELLO:

    Is it intended that Doviello recon units can't use the 'blood of' animal promotions from animals? They can only get these from the buildings, which are often built well after I have built my scouts and hunters.

    Also, I found a great little exploit: although doviello cannot get 'subdue animal' promotions, their FoL fauns (which are amazing, by the way, contrary to what has been said elsewhere) can. This means that I can keep four fawns and four wolves in a city, and each turn 'release' the four wolves into the wild, recapture them with the fawns, and so on and on, getting loads of XP.

    Also, I do not think that the 'shared XP' mechanic is working for the doviello. Do animals and workers count towards this?


    Also, I heard somewhere that doviello animals can upgrade – is this the case? And if so, how?
     
  4. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

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    You lost me here, even if I agree on the majority of your points...
    Everyone can BUILD and MANTAIN forests, they just need a priest of leaves to do that, maybe you're referring to the ability to build INTO forest (no sarcasm intended, maybe I misunderstood your points, english is not even my second language :p)...
    And, math at hand, OpheliaImmortal has painted a situation where the elves are relly damaged by improvements and plot yelds, so something must be done, am I wrong ;)?

    That said, giving them +:food: for forest would be OT, my vote goes for a +1 :hammers:, and maybe, just maybe a SMALL increase to forest :health:.
     
  5. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Got it.

    Now trying to fix the maintain features bug :)
     
  6. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

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    FoL in general is terribly unbalanced, as is Mazatl's the lost lands civic. Currently making FoL 'the' religion for 'all' civilizations, and for elves it's just insane heh

    15 happiness. +2 from Grove, BEFORE improvements for elves and 10 happiness for Mazatl.
    Add to that 20 health from the ancient forests and +5 from civic, again before improvements.
    So they can keep cities of 10-17 more population than anybody else, that's just nuts.
    If a city of 20 population is huge for an agnostic or other religion civ, the elf and Mazatl cities will have populations of 30-37...

    For non elf/Mazatl civs, it's slightly more balanced but still more powerful than I think it should be heh... They can't afford to keep ancient forests in 'every' tile.

    Personally I think removing the Guardian of Nature civic entirely is the way to go, being able to grow ancient forests wherever you want alone is worth the whole religion.
    If you're not an elf, put a lumbermill on it and it's already better than all other improvements+0.5 health per tile. The Mazatl's civic ought to be balanced along with it to.

    EDIT: Also note that Cualli as opposed to Mazatl are agnostic, and do not have the +0.5 happiness of Mazatl, nor the general culture and happiness from religion, they do get a lot more food than other civs however, it's not nearly at the scale of Mazatl and elves hehe. But I am biased having them as one of my favorite civs.
    And erm reading up, I think the best way to go is to remove the civic, give priest of leaves ability to create forests, Maybe give workers improved chop rate too, make forests turn into ancient forests in FoL territory. This would still make it a supergreat religion for elves, and viable for non-elf civs to. Ability to create forests alone is good, but the best non-resource improvement in the game is currently ancient forest+lumbermill. Would also take care of the huge city problem nicely, as ancient forests+lumbermills don't make much food.(Would of course have farms and other mills on other tiles.)
     
  7. Frodius

    Frodius Chieftain

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    First, let me say thanks for the great work on the mod, and I think you have done a lot of great work so far.

    I would toss out an idea about how to make running FoL better for elves than other civs and to make a general point about some of the changes in 1.3.

    1) One thing to consider for the elves is using the bannor mechanic of spawning free units from the proposed orchard improvment. Perhaps they could be a weaker version of the treants that spawn from the the wood elves' world spell. Maybe each orchard produces a melee treeman, but the dark elves also have a chance to spawn an agry ent seige unit from their forrest work shops, and the wood elves can spawn a ent priest from their forrest cottages (just throwing out ideas). If the goal is to make elven cities smaller but as productive as other civs, means of production outside of normal tile yields will have to be considered (perhaps running coucil of esus could allow the svart to spawn some units from their tiles as well)

    2) I am also concerned that the health changes are going to make achieving the stated goal of the developers of reaching a "finished" product a much larger task. There are many civilizations that have to be rebalanced now, and that will require a lot more than just simple tinkering. Plus, as has been discussed, a lot of important issues can't even be worked on until the health model has been finalized. I can't see much meaningful balance work being done at least until 2 more patches have been released and the health and savage barbarian systems have been implemented, because balancing towards a moving target is usually counter productive (as is illustrated by the theory that the legion has been nerfed this patch vs the reality of their continued broken state; I guess you just can't keep a good lich down it would seem).

    Anyways thanks again, and I am always pleasantly suprised that a community of modders exists with so much energy and dedication.
     
  8. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Just played a Svart FoL game as Volanna, with Ancient Forests not removing food anymore (but not adding any either). Also add the new health balancing tweaks and the new Guardian of Nature civic (with less hapiness, +4 health only and -25% military production).

    I didn't have any issue with building improvements in (ancient/) forests :confused: I thought someone said that ability wasn't working anymore?

    So it was pretty playable. Don't see any need to balance the elves more.

    @Frodius: we have "content patches" planned still, so the aim to have a finished product isn't that close.

    That said, the Mazatl & the Cualli both need a lot of balancing to be done. Note that IIRC they get health with jungles, which they have on every plot or nearly...

    Guardian of Nature will be removed in the civics rework, it's aleady planned; for now it is still to be accounted for.
     
  9. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Joining the general consensus for some Elven boost to the tune of +1 hammer, +.25 more health from forests. Elves are playable, but a weak choice in a way no civilization should be. All their competitive abilities come from FoL - NOT being Elven. There is at present no compelling reason to pick elves over any other FoL-compatible race, unless you just really like Alazkan (understandable).

    To clarify, as has been stated before, the elven civs are either better archers or better ninjas, with no economic benefit and no other special benefit. If you really like archers over any other defense/bombardment units, they've pretty much got the monopoly there, but there are plenty of civs with great recon lines who do just as well with FoL as the Elves, and plenty of civs who can manage strong defense/bombardment with FoL as well - there's nothing really unique about elves, and they have no niche anymore.

    IMHO Elves should always be the defining FoL civilization, and they should always be ahead in forested terrain via economy.
     
  10. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    This isn't really accurate. While I personally think the +1 food was too much, and the -1 food went too far the other way, you -can- have all your tiles as forest. Assuming the orchard comes in you would have a tile with 2 food 1 production 4 commerce. That's self sustaining. Though you can still do this with camps until windmills come along (assuming the bug gets fixed)

    Not having siege SUCKS. I still don't understand why the matzl and cualli get it, since they are basically in the same commerce boat, but I don't see the elves as being useless. A windmilled tile in ancient forest running industry has the potential for the highest yeild in the game (A total of 11 pips - 3 food, 4 production, 4 commerce), without the ancient forest you would get 4 food, 3 production, 2 commerce. Pretty big difference! However.. the real kicker is.. what good is all that food if your cities are too unhealthy to grow? You are vastly underestimating the +.05 health per tile.

    Oddly the balseraph are much worse for wear, due to not being able to utilize their happiness bonuses. The new mutation mechanics are.. lacking. They seem to have the same chance of getting something good as getting something bad, which isn't a very good use of a spell slot. I'd give the elves another try once the building in the forest tiles bug gets sorted.. I'm actually more concerned with non-elves running FoL and crippling themselves since so many nations have a high propensity to switch to it. It might actually be a good idea to give elves -1 food, +2 commerce (or +1 production +1 commerce?) and all the other nations no benefit and no loss of food (the health bonuses alone would be worth it I suspect).
     
  11. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    So what you guys would think of:

    (1) Ancient Forests: 0 food change, +1 production, +2 commerce
    (2) Elves: unable to upgrade cottages past the village
    (3) Elves: +1 food from Ancient Forests and regular Forests
    (4) Elves: requires 3 food per pop

    I don't think they need any production boost really. Just build a mine! They get already more production from all tiles if they are FoL.

    (2) would mostly be to reduce the cottage+AF benefit (only slightly though).

    (3) & (4) would be so they have a slower growth but not that slow.
     
  12. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    What bug? I didn't get any issue in my game :confused:
     
  13. Koravis

    Koravis Chieftain

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    They get 0.25 health from jungle, and jungle removes 0.25 health, so they don't actually get any health from it, they just don't lose any as opposed to other civs.((According to Civilopedia anyways, I checked before making my previous post, and from my Cualli game in 1.3, health is a very real issue.((In fact, elves with ancient forests((without the civic)) are already stronger economically than the cualli. An ancient forest((with the food penalty removed)) give +1 prod +2 commerce and +0.5 health, while the jungle give the Cualli +1 production only.

    EDIT: In response to Evalis and Ophelia's posts: Am I playing a different game? :p this is confusing heh, The only other FoL Compatible civ on par with elves is Mazatl, that I know of, and they don't get anything at all from FoL without the civic((Which is useless to them anyways)) none other can take FoL and are able to build in forests at the same time. Not having siege units is easily countered by 1 fire node. The economic boon to elves is HUGE +1 production and +2 commerce to 'every' tile, that's +20 production and +40 commerce, before counting %'ages, and then add 10 health and optionally the insane stuff from the civic too... It isn't +0.05 to health per tile, it's 0.5.

    EDIT 2: About the bug, I vaugely remember experiencing the same bug in wild mana(the mod mod, not the setting) a while back, my elves chopping a forest when they shouldn't, also forgetting to move faster in forests, don't remember the cause of it but it was entirely circumstancial and only happened when I did something I can't remember with them. ((Ok this probably sounds really confusing heh, might not be the same anyways...))

    To the proposed changes: Assuming the insane civic is going out the window, I like them, though might hurt the elven specialists, +2 commerce, +1 prod and +0.5 health in every tile(Assuming no coast, is a huge deal though, much much bigger than having no siege weapons so gota hurt them somewhere in my opinion :p
     
  14. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    I believe health from features for civs override the real value. Still the Mazatl & the Cualli are a bit too imbalanced right now.
     
  15. Segolenus

    Segolenus Chieftain

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    These look great. Although how might the 3 food/pop be explained lore-wise? That elves just eat more? :p
     
  16. lordrune

    lordrune Prince

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    Good ideas.

    It basically does force the elves to be in forests if they want to be viable - so maybe the elves (Ljo and Svart) could get an early ability to create forests - I would think it would be very suitable for their worker unit. Otherwise they have to wait for a Priest of Leaves.

    I'd explain it by saying that elves are more sparing as to what they take from the land.
     
  17. Sarisin

    Sarisin Deity

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    I don't think so because of one unit: Loki. Maybe they took a hit in other areas, but Loki with his ability to pop lairs, dungeons, etc. without worry of being killed and also to flip the cities of civs that like to grow quickly (although there are negatives about that too), I think the Balseraphs fared very well in 1.3. One thing I noticed in 1.23 was that almost every Freak I built ran away Crazed. I am not seeing this in 1.3

    The Balseraphs used to be good for an early Cultural Victory too. However, I'm seeing with the two civs I've played that it is hard to get GPs other than Healers as you need them so badly and that adds to the Great Physician pts.
     
  18. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

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    Errr... I can see the math behind your whole reasoning, but still, I'm a bit wary of such a change...

    How about something that can be sacrificed to grow a forest? That way Production---> forest, and it could be flavourful and balanced in the early game...
     
  19. Divvu

    Divvu Warlord

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    Sorry! Double post!
     
  20. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Emphasis mine; this is the problem. :p

    Giving them +1 food but then making them require 3 food per pop seems like a bad idea; doesn't that just weaken them overall by increasing their dependency without increasing their benefit (they're weak on non-Forest rather then stronger on Forest)? Somebody do a number crunch?

    Your changes are interesting, but it looks like you're shifting the scales around without actually changing the balance. Elves could use a buff.
     

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