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Balance Feedback

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    and furthermore, while the city is in revolts it doesn't starve... and doesn't impacts yet on the global maintenance of the empire.
    while if you quenched the revolt with a disciple and there are too much angry people... the city starves as you have too few citizen to work the fields. And furthermore, that starving city, that can't bring you more than 2:science: begins to cost you 5-10 :gold: in city maintenance due to distance to palace, not counting the global rise in all city maintenance.
    I only do it if I really need to have to border extended back that quick.
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Hmm... I think we could easily add a check so that the culture bomb only removes revolt if the culture gained is at least X% of the actual culture in the city. Means early game disciples could do it (when they are actually expensive), but by the late game? Not really.

    Ah, good catch, I completely forgot about that. I'll change it.

    I agree with these posts, personally. I just don't see the gain from disciple-bombing conquered cities.
     
  3. Blacklanner

    Blacklanner Chieftain

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    I don't think the ability to remove revolt from conquered cities is a balance problem. As others have pointed out, it has a lot of drawbacks. Its a nice option to have for when you want it though, and I like the feature in the game as it is. Mostly i use it if i want to sit in the city and regroup for a turn or two and want the culture to constrain enemy movement so i don't get hammered. What i was cautioning against was forgetting to consider the mechanic exists, if you balance other powerful advantages with sending one of your cities into revolt.
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, if we want to have a "revolt mechanism" as counter effect for something, maybe you could add to it a :mad: mechanism, so if someone culture bomb the city it squashes. Maybe even add a :yuck: mechanism so that unyielding order or tower of complacency cities are also embarrassed by the counter effets.
    If the city revolts, the :mad: and :yuck: have no effects on the city. If you culture bomb it... the city might starve.
     
  5. Till

    Till Adventurer

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    Currently the Demon's Altar gives you 10+unitlevel^2 beakers for each sacrifice.

    The shield to beakers exchange rate is pathetic. I am not sure what the cheapest unit in the game is, so lets take a warrior as reference. It costs 25shields, meaning that you would need it to be at level 4 to just about break even. Considering that producing the warrior clogs up city production, this is a really bad deal compared to running a scientist specialist.

    You get so few beakers out of the deal that even free units are unappealing sacrifices. Slaves are better used building improvements or forts. Combat units are better used as fodder and garrisons.

    As tech costs increase, the already questionable value of the sacrifices further degrades. By the time you could conceivably have significant amounts of unneeded units and free production slots in cities, sacrifices have become all but worthless (unless the spare units are somehow high level).

    Game speed apparently also isn't taken into account.

    I'd boost the reward, taking the shield value of the unit into account, scale it over time so that it keeps its value as tech costs increase, and scale it with gamespeed so that it is equally useful in each setting.
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I'll look at it, but I promise nothing. ;)
     
  7. Sjru

    Sjru Dragon

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    A few thoughts of why Dispel magic is OP:

    *It cannot be resisted.
    *It has +2 range.
    *Sometimes causes CTD.
    *Practically dispels all beneficial effects from enemies and negatives from yours.

    They say it's balanced because it requires metamagic, which requires sorcery and is a mid game tech, however, that doesn't mean that with your mage you can go and dispel your enemy's army of enchanted blades without any drawbacks.

    Perhaps, make it so you can resist it????
     
  8. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    I thought the reason all those other spells aren't overpowered is that Dispel Magic removes them easily.

    (Not really, I didn't think Dispel Magic had any effect on promotions. But that part was a bug.)
     
  9. Sjru

    Sjru Dragon

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    But you cannot deny that Dispel magic is pretty darn unstable: A big amount of the CTDs I experience those days are related to that spell.
    And it SHOULD be able to be resisted, is a spell anyways, a strong one though.
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    The instability related to Dispel Magic should be fixed in the next version. Snarko has mentioned it several times.

    The spell is designed to be a counter to enchanting your units, and then leaving them without the mage. Keep a mage able to cast the spell with them, and you can reapply it.
     
  11. Sjru

    Sjru Dragon

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    That's ok then.
    But listen, I need to go again with the Ice golems thing: It isn't possible for them to terraform to ice with a +3 range!. I know you said that they're not going to perma-terraform anymore, but have you stated the fact that they change terrain in a +3 range? Pretty much stronger than Vitalize spell, since you cannot avoid that once they are on the game, even if they dissapear from the timer is enough to convert to ice all the terrain.
    Perhaps, could be better if they only could terraform it's own tile? Or remove the feature at all...
     
  12. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    ....I have said numerous times that the entire mechanic behind Ice Elementals terraforming shall be looked at.
     
  13. dunedainjedi

    dunedainjedi Warlord

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    Dear Varn,

    Please enjoy the gift of Tundra I have created in your desert. I will now crush you beneath the hill of winter while your people freeze and starve.

    Hugs and Kisses,
    Auric

    PS. Wilboman says hello.
    PPS. +10% bonus for tundra combat

    It's an interesting idea that is way over powered in execution and should probably be dealt away with.

    By terraforming with an ice elemental you can remove terrain bonuses from naturally terraforming civs(Malakim, D'tesh, lizards, etc) and cripple their economy. There are no counters whatsoever and the mechanic can't be used effectively by the AI. This specific terraforming needs to go away.
     
  14. Niveras

    Niveras Prince

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    I actually had Varn adopt the White Hand in my last game, maybe even founded it. He still somehow held his own, despite obviously being unable to trade much given that he destroyed his own desert tiles. His territory had some roads but I have no idea where they came from.

    Or is it that Malakim are only prevented from building roads in desert? That would explain it and make sense to boot.
     
  15. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    For absolutely the last time (I swear, I will ignore any post on the subject from this point forward; This marks the 16th or 17th such post just since 1.3 was released), it will be changed.

    Only blocked from building roads in desert. Outside of the desert, you need roads; Otherwise you can't create overland trade routes.
     
  16. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I remarke that you are speaking of shields and not :hammers: which is the current unit for measuring production. Surely an old cIII reflex :D
    on the subject : now, you'll easily have many highly promoted workers. when you have improved all your lands... you can squash them.
    if you have warriors to update but no cash to make them become chamions : squash.
    if you have some +% to build units (conquest / heroic epic warrens) the city will build unit quickly and you hammers would cost less.
    if you have training grounds + 6free xp, you can easily have 10xp warriors in a few turns(26:science:)
    if you have ride of the nine kings + some free xp in citie (like 7) : any horseman starts with 17xp (lvl 5) so 35:science:

    if you have the altar, any disciple starts easily with 10xp : 25 :science:

    combine that with +100% :hammers: for units.
    it means a 30:hammers: warrior in heroic epic city costs 15:hammers: and provides 26 :science: ; a 60:hammers: horseman cost 30:hammers: and gives 35:science:.
    those are very cost-efficienct :hammers:->:science: conversion rate.
    it is even better than directly converting hammers to science in a city with academy.
    (I'm not counting the effect of forge/artisan workshop as those have the same effect for direct conversion and altar sacrifice).

    combine that with the fact that you won't sacrifice good unit ...it become quite nice.
    those badly mutated units that can't even be canon fodder as they won't even strike once... can give you some :science: instead, and sometime even be cost efficient.

    Maybe it is not an über religious UB but it still have a niche effect.

    But you are right, maybe an effect of the initial :hammers: cost would still be better. and something more (else a 30:hammers: lvl4 warrior would always be more efficient than a 90:hammers: lvl4 axeman).
     
  17. jrc

    jrc Chieftain

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    Malakim (and maybe other terraforming civs too) probably shouldn't be allowed to build the Genesis ritual... seems like a waste of hammers as well as strategical advantage. The AI at least can't judge the value of "upgrades terrain" in this particular case :).

    But maybe this won't be an issue in upcoming versions with revamps to terraforming?
     
  18. Till

    Till Adventurer

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    Good catch about the shield/hammer slip up. :D

    It is true that you will eventually end up with spare workers, and that they will be highly promoted.
    However, this doesn't tend to happen until very late in the game (at least for me). The reduced workrate and the constant discovery of resources keep your worker busy.
    Also, there is the whole fort issue. Currently there is no downside to building forts, so spare workers should be assigned to constructing them. You'll also always want some around to accompany your army and build roads.

    But yes, eventually you will be able to spare some. Of course you will want to keep your most highly promoted ones, so you'll use the riffraff. I took a look at one of my games, and a 318 turn old worker was level 6, a 168 old one was level 5, and an 80 turn old one was level 4. Looks like you can't expect your workers to reach more than level 7 at most. Even if you go with level 7 workers as sacrifices, that's just 59 beakers/worker. That's what you get from goody huts at the beginning of the game, but it's a joke in the endgame where techs cost thousands of beakers. You would need a truly massive sacrifice to make a dent. As any captured workers/slaves have their age reset to 0, most potential sacrifices will be low level, even in the late game.

    Fair point about the warrior upgrades, even though you always have money to upgrade your best warriors. :p

    I also concede that if you use your best unit production cities for sacrifice generation, you can get an acceptable exchange rate. Of course then those cities are unavailable for building armies, which is such a huge downside that i don't think it'd be worth it under normal circumstances.

    Since you mentioned badly mutated units, i assume you refer to freaks? Building those seems like a horrible, awful, terrible waste of shie.. :hammers: once you have freak shows in every city. They cost 60:hammers: and aren't cheaper to upgrade than 25:hammers: warriors (iirc). Their mutation promotion can be easily gained for free with the Chaos II spell.
     
  19. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    no, I'm speaking of building scouts and warriors "en masse", mutate (chaosII) them, and then, depending on the promotion the get, upgrade them into archer/longbow, horsemen, horsearcher, knights, champions...Etc
    even late game, I'd rather mutate and scrap warriors than mutate champions because scrapin champs is bad for morale.
    And it's true that one can almost always find enough money to upgrade the best mutated warriors into longbow/champion/horse-archer.
    But what to do with the huge masse of badly mutated unit ? and those that are almost good but suffer a heavy -50%heal ... ?

    Sacrificing them to altars, after a proper training time, seems a not so bad option.
     
  20. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Just popping in to say that all the feedback on mutation has been listened to. I've done a few things to the system.

    First off, I changed the weighting algorithm; Rarer promotions will show up with the right frequency now, rather than not at all. Had a freak with +1 strength and Crazed; Some of the rarest good and bad effects.

    Second, I've modified the ratio of Good/Bad/Neutral mutations; It was 25/25/50, it is now 40/30/30.

    Thirdly, I have added MaxApplications; Can define the maximum amount of each mutation effect that a unit can receive. If you are at that max, the promotion is not considered valid and is ignored. This has also led to some more varied mutations.
     

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