Balance - Gameplay

Kael said:
We have 5 main variables to play with on catapults:

1. Combat Strength (3)
2. Withdrawal Chance (25)
3. Collaterral damage max- max damage it can inflict (50)
4. Collaterral damage targets- max units it can hit with collaterral damage (6)
5. Bombard Rate- how much defence it removes from a city (15)

Standard:
1. Combat Strength (3)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (50)
4. Collaterral damage targets (6)
5. Bombard Rate (15)

Basic so i haven't changed anything.

Doviello:
1. Combat Strength (6)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (100)
4. Collaterral damage targets (3)
5. Bombard Rate (10)

My idea of this is a catapult that is really powerful but can only kill a few enemies at once. Also low bombard rate.

Clan of Embers:
1. Combat Strength (5)
2. Withdrawal Chance (50)
3. Collaterral damage max (50)
4. Collaterral damage targets (10)
5. Bombard Rate (10)

I think of these guys as suicide catapults. Just 50% withdrawal. High strength and able to hit many at once but able to take away more than half of their hp. Low bombard rate, but attacking normally reduces city's defense by 30.

Dwarven:
1. Combat Strength (5)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (70)
4. Collaterral damage targets (6)
5. Bombard Rate (25)

Just uber catapults. Those dwarves.

Balseraph:
1. Combat Strength (2)
2. Withdrawal Chance (95)
3. Collaterral damage max (90)
4. Collaterral damage targets (15)
5. Bombard Rate (20)

I think of these guys as an evil carnival that fires evil spirits at the city. Low strength but very high withdrawal and can hit an entire city at once. Can't kill enemies totally but can reduce much of their hp. Medium Bombard rate. In a word--Pesky.
 
loki1232 said:
Standard:
1. Combat Strength (3)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (50)
4. Collaterral damage targets (6)
5. Bombard Rate (15)

Basic so i haven't changed anything.

Doviello:
1. Combat Strength (6)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (100)
4. Collaterral damage targets (3)
5. Bombard Rate (10)

My idea of this is a catapult that is really powerful but can only kill a few enemies at once. Also low bombard rate.

Clan of Embers:
1. Combat Strength (5)
2. Withdrawal Chance (50)
3. Collaterral damage max (50)
4. Collaterral damage targets (10)
5. Bombard Rate (10)

I think of these guys as suicide catapults. Just 50% withdrawal. High strength and able to hit many at once but able to take away more than half of their hp. Low bombard rate, but attacking normally reduces city's defense by 30.

Dwarven:
1. Combat Strength (5)
2. Withdrawal Chance (80)
3. Collaterral damage max (70)
4. Collaterral damage targets (6)
5. Bombard Rate (25)

Just uber catapults. Those dwarves.

Balseraph:
1. Combat Strength (2)
2. Withdrawal Chance (95)
3. Collaterral damage max (90)
4. Collaterral damage targets (15)
5. Bombard Rate (20)

I think of these guys as an evil carnival that fires evil spirits at the city. Low strength but very high withdrawal and can hit an entire city at once. Can't kill enemies totally but can reduce much of their hp. Medium Bombard rate. In a word--Pesky.

I agree with you. cept the Balseraph dont fire evil spirits at cities, they fire cows. Im adding the following as the strategy tag for the Dwarven catapult: "Just uber catapults. Those dwarves." - Loki
 
Kael said:
I agree with you. cept the Balseraph dont fire evil spirits at cities, they fire cows. Im adding the following as the strategy tag for the Dwarven catapult: "Just uber catapults. Those dwarves." - Loki

;)

Are you serious about the Balseraphs? If so that's quite cool but I'm not sure how to modify the catapult to reflect that unless we give them the Bovine sphere spells.
 
loki1232 said:
;)

Are you serious about the Balseraphs? If so that's quite cool but I'm not sure how to modify the catapult to reflect that unless we give them the Bovine sphere spells.

yeap, thank Chalid. He sent me a catapult that fires cows. Its awesome! It doesnt moo or say 'fetcha la vue' (or whatever the line is) yet though, we gotta get that in.
 
Kael said:
yeap, thank Chalid. He sent me a catapult that fires cows. Its awesome! It doesnt moo or say 'fetcha la vue' (or whatever the line is) yet though, we gotta get that in.

Its fechez le vacez or something and that is awesome.
 
Kael said:
Based on this thread I've gathered the following ideas for changes:

1. Allow the marskman promotion to be learned by recon and archer units with combat 4 as a counter to arcane units.

2. Increase the Cultural Defence of cities by 25%

*****None 0 -> 0
*****Poor 0 -> 0
*****Fledgling 20 -> 25
*****Developing 40 -> 50
*****Refined 60 -> 75
*****Influential 80 -> 100
*****Legendary 100 -> 125

3. Decrease the attack strength of rank 2 summons. Rank 3 will remain high because Summoners are national units and don't stack as well.

4. Increase the withdrawal chance of catapults and look to make them generally better (especially for certain civs).

5. Provide a building that allows a city to resist summons. Magic Resistant Trait leaders will get an additional bonus to this effect.

What do you guys think?

Chalid, I never heard your impressions of this. What do you think?
 
Did i not reply?:confused:

I like the changes, maybe even increase the kultural defense even more above level 3 (so that established cities need the siege even more)! - Oh what do you think about changing the bombard of catapults from relative bombart to absolute? So that a city with defense 15 can be bombarded with one attack while a city with defense 120 will need 8 attacks (at bombard power 15). right know both need 6 attacks to be down to zero.
But the final balancing (as well as for the defence as for the strenght of units an catapults) will of course need to be a result of gameplay experience. So i think we should try and decide afterwards what is an improvement and what isn't


Additionaly we could create an unsummoner (+50% vs summoned units or something with the new anti promotion promotions as soon as they are provided by me and in. Btw i will post the code as soon as we have a running FfH110e and I have made sure that they will integrate without problems)
 
I found a strategy that I think needs some rebalancing. I was playing on Monarch as Hippus with the aggressive and raider personality. In the early-mid game I built up an army of 14 raiders. They have 4 movement and 4 attack plus with the aggresive trait they have commando so they can use enemy roads. And with the raider trait when I raided cottages, hamlets, villages, and towns I got massive amounts of money.

The strategy that is unbalanced is when I sent them all out to attack the weak civ to my north I could raid almost all of their cottage-type improvements next to their capital in 1 turn. This got me nearly 500 gold in just one turn, by just raiding the hamlets and villages and towns by one capitol city. After about 4 turns I had gone through their whole empire raizing all of their cottage improvements getting me around 1000 gold. I repeated this with many other civs.

It was a really fun game because I didnt even have to take any cities I just went around raiding all improvements and taking workers in the feilds gaining tons of money. But it was really unbalanced.

One thing that you could try to do to balance it is lower the Raiders movement points to 2 or 3.
 
Samuelson said:
I found a strategy that I think needs some rebalancing. I was playing on Monarch as Hippus with the aggressive and raider personality. In the early-mid game I built up an army of 14 raiders. They have 4 movement and 4 attack plus with the aggresive trait they have commando so they can use enemy roads. And with the raider trait when I raided cottages, hamlets, villages, and towns I got massive amounts of money.

The strategy that is unbalanced is when I sent them all out to attack the weak civ to my north I could raid almost all of their cottage-type improvements next to their capital in 1 turn. This got me nearly 500 gold in just one turn, by just raiding the hamlets and villages and towns by one capitol city. After about 4 turns I had gone through their whole empire raizing all of their cottage improvements getting me around 1000 gold. I repeated this with many other civs.

It was a really fun game because I didnt even have to take any cities I just went around raiding all improvements and taking workers in the feilds gaining tons of money. But it was really unbalanced.

One thing that you could try to do to balance it is lower the Raiders movement points to 2 or 3.

Yeah, im pretty sure the raider will come a little later in the new tech tree than it comes now and the raider promotion will give double the gold instead of 3 times the gold.

If that isnt enough we may increase the raider cost too, I really dont want to take away the 4/4 horse unit.
 
Kael i've written something about that in the "Things i need feedback on" thread. It got lost under the 5000th post of woodelf congratulations. Maybe you want to check my considerations.
 
I think we need to keep the 4/4 as well, but the pillaging can be toned down a bit. The AI does pillage with stacks quite well I've found. :)
 
Thats from the other thread from me:
Here i have something concerning the raider ability. I think its free commando is to strong especially for horses. A raider(commando) can move 8 tiles in enemy territory, 12 after engeneering. Thats jut insane!

Giving a free mobility I or another special raider mobility promotion to horses (for foot troops commando is evil but still ok) seems much more balanced (and of course hiding a army of horses from enemy patrols - thats how i imagine commando, guys sneaking through the woods whenever somethingis near them on the road - seems not very likely).
 
Chalid said:
Thats from the otehr thread from me:

This is where forts would be nice. The commando option is cool, but at least with checkpoints or forts you could control it from happening to you. I agree with the stuff in the "other" thread.
 
Why not have them start with the '-1 terrain movement cost' promotion instead of commando?
 
I still think that siege weapons as a unit that is built in cities should be discarded in favor of a 'summoned' siege weapon. It's just too tedious building hordes of catapults and dragging them all over creation and then losing most of them to "softening" attacks.

I miss the old bombard abilities from civ 3. That was a solid system.

Also, while im on the subject of Siege Engineers as a unit type, (yeah this part of the post should be in the unit design post) why not also give them a promotion to build forts outside of city borders. Possibly even lookout towers too?
 
I think that Lichs are to powerful - they effectly double your archmage count so it becomes stupid not to max them out every game... Maybe it would be more ballanced if you are limited to a total amount of 3 for archmages and liches.
 
Neo Guderian said:
I still think that siege weapons as a unit that is built in cities should be discarded in favor of a 'summoned' siege weapon. It's just too tedious building hordes of catapults and dragging them all over creation and then losing most of them to "softening" attacks.

I miss the old bombard abilities from civ 3. That was a solid system.

I disagree. The catapult is a much needed unit. One problem we currently have is the fact that the AI is not building any right now.

Also, specialized unit like catapult should be cheaper than versatile unit like mages. Mage are currently overpowered IMO since the human player uses the magic system way better than the AI.

Removing catapult all together would not improve anything. It would probably have the opposite effect.

Also, moving catapult around isn't more tedious than moving a stack of mages. Mages can have the +1 movement promotion and you can cast haste on them, making them extremelly mobile. Another reason why mages are very effective units right now.
 
The Nexus semms undercosted (costs the same as 2 obsidian gates but in my current game it granted over 20). I would suggest dynamic cost depending on your number of cities (if it is possible) and make it work like a spell (as genesis) so newly conquered cities don't get a gate.
 
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