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Balancing Science in Civ V in Regards to Large Empires

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by BjoernLars, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    BjoernLars: Do you see it as a design-goal to make small and large empires equally good? I'm not talking about small and large empires having different challenges, but is it really so that land(and total population) should not be an advantage? I find that to be a very strange balance to wish for.
     
  2. BjoernLars

    BjoernLars Warlord

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    I see this as a design-goal to make civilizations that have well built cities and infrastructure to have the advantage in science. You could still expand and conquer cities, but those new cities should have a negligible affect on your research until you take the time to build up their infrastructure.

    Taking the military route in this game seems to be the sure fire way to win. I spent an entire game with six large, well built cities while Persia went off and conquered its entire continent and was outpacing me technologically.
     
  3. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Agreed. This is where warmongers win. In time those cities will be able accumulate science but I don't think they should be at 100% when they are puppets.
     
  4. Nick Doom

    Nick Doom Warlord

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    Frosty_AUT has made a good sugestion in his topic Courthouses and Puppet states http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387259 that ithink could address this

    Spoiler :
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Better would be Puppet state Cities not contributing Anything to your empire besides Territory. (but not charging you maintenance/population unhappiness.... they should still charge you city unhappiness.)

    And adding a Small (5, 10 %) extra cost to techs per city would be useful.
     
  6. mamuz

    mamuz Chieftain

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    > Puppet and Annexed City Penalties
    > Unhappiness


    In my opinion it's not good ideas here. It's a bit too artificial.

    > Literacy Bonus

    As a bonus, it's a good idea.


    > City Size Bonuses for Certain Science Buildings


    Here ! Sciences is linked to population. Ok.
    In my opinion, buildings should be forget, it's just bonuses applied to your base level of science. Then, if something need to be change, change the base directly.

    I don't know which is the function f(n) used by Civ V to link population and sciences (it's easy to find, but i can't for now). If the function is a linear one ( n citizens give n x "a number of science"), it's a mistake. In real life, two isolated scientists are less creative than if they worked in team (team = same city, in Civ V context).
    A square function is better (and maybe too radical, but the idea is here) :

    1 pop => 1 x 1 = 1 sciences
    2 pop => 2 x 2 = 4 sciences
    ...
    10 pop => 10 x 10 = 100 sciences

    With this function, an empire with 9 pop in only one city generates 89. An empire with 9 pop in 3 cities generates only 27.

    If we really want to give importance to building, we can think about something like this :
    - use linear f(n) for city without library
    - use an half-square f(n) for city with library
    - use a full-square f(n) for city with university
    - etc...
     
  7. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Yeah that and the fact that a puppet state is an occupation made possible by collaborators. Science should not have a high priority in such a conflicted enviroment, then there is the big risk that scientists results are hidden away from the "opressors".
     
  8. Nick Doom

    Nick Doom Warlord

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    Atm a population of 6,000 can make 2 science if it is in one city (2 citizens) or 6 if you have 6 cities (of 1 citizen each)

    I know they tried to balances this with he unhappiness from numbers of cities but as

    1. unhappiness has no effect on science and,
    2. with how much harder it is to make a for e.g. a level 12 city compared to 2 level s6 or 3 level 4s. You end up with one or 2 less unhappiness in exchange for a lot less land and less places to build units.

    1 city level 12 makes 13 unhappiness 12 science while it has a population of 1,051,000
    2 level 6 cities makes 14 unhappiness 12 science while it has a population of 300,000
    3 level 4 cities makes 15 unhappiness 12 science while it has a population of 144,000
     
  9. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    AI empires frequently don't grind themselves down with expansion. They become unstoppable juggernauts instead. Perhaps the AI is better at judging when to expand than we give it credit for.

    Just make the late game buildings better and this wouldn't be a problem. Late game buildings seem to be designed as modest value in highly specialised cities. If they were made decent value in average cities then it would reward a builder approach.
     
  10. Alyosha

    Alyosha Chieftain

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    I'd really like to see science in Civ V completely overhauled. The way it's linked to population is just nonsensical. An 'education' factor probably would have been ideal. Even using those already modeled in the game, either wealth, happiness or a combination of both, would have been more accurate.

    If we must retain an element of the current model, I suggest halving the science bonus for population and adding another bonus based on wealth or happiness to science buildings. I think you should be encouraged to tend to your cities - rather than just carelessly expand. There should be some bonuses for sprawling, populous empires (different styles of play should be catered for) but faster research should not be one of them!
     
  11. SkepticalSinner

    SkepticalSinner Chieftain

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    Some great suggestions in there!

    I especially like the literacy bonus, and the penalty for unhappiness and puppet cities.
     
  12. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Linking to population is the best measure of scientific progress there is.

    The things not modeled by that are ideas moving 'between civs' and loss of ideas.

    For that, I'd say give a penalty based on # of cities (similar to social policy.) However, the # of cities for the penalty would be # of your cities-# of cities of your neighbors that have the tech
     
  13. Frosty_AUT

    Frosty_AUT Chieftain

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    What about this:

    Technologies get cheaper to research the more civilizations already possess them.

    Explanation:
    Think about it. Throughout history, scientific progress has pretty much ignored national borders. Of course, isolationist countries will always fall behind in technology but once the borders are opened, they catch up extremely quickly. 19th century Japan is a good example.

    Implications:
    Large empires will still have tech leadership in most cases, with all of its benefits. It'll just be much easier for smaller empires to catch up.
     
  14. Nick Doom

    Nick Doom Warlord

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    I like the idea sum population but cost of tech = base + % times numbers of cities

    It would work out right event if the logic is more gamey then real but heck it is a game
     
  15. Nick Doom

    Nick Doom Warlord

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    OR (numbers just for show)

    +30% * numbers of cities under size 4
    +20% * numbers of cities under size 8
    +10% * numbers of cities under size 12
    +0% * numbers of cities under size 16

    I know this is coming at it from the wrong side i.e. not giving us more beakers fro larger cities but meaning we need less compared to having he same number of small cities but the net result should be the same
     
  16. gdmast

    gdmast Warlord

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    And not only conquest victory but also space race vicrory.
     
  17. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Actually....

    Technology cost = Base +30%*(Number of additional cities you have - Number of cities of your neighbors who have the tech, minimum 0)


    Would encourage Big Developed cities.over multiple little ones
     
  18. DonMarty

    DonMarty Chieftain

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    That's already done.
    Look at Tech Diffusion Mod.

    To remove science per population :

    <GameData>
    <!-- Disable base research -->
    <Defines>
    <Update>
    <Where Name="SCIENCE_PER_POPULATION"/>
    <Set Value="0"/>
    </Update>
    </Defines>

    </GameData>

    Just add ancient era science building and specialist.

    I'll try to put science per population to 0 for my next update. Im just not sure if AI using the specialist slot in my shaman house.
     
  19. DonMarty

    DonMarty Chieftain

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    :cowboy:

    Im so fast i already done it.

    DonMartyMod v1.17 is online and you dont have any science from population.

    You need to build a hut that will provide you +1 science
    and a shaman house where a specilist can give you +2 science.

    Now you have 3 choice:
    Tech to Writing and get a librairy
    Tech to Wheel get a settler build a town with a hut and a shaman house
    Tech to masonry to build a palace +3 science...
     
  20. Bigben34

    Bigben34 Warlord

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    I am in favor of re-connecting science with economy the way it was in Civ IV. I really don't understand the rational for the current change; I find it very odd. Empires with good economies should have the option of funneling that into research rather then buidling up a big army; I think it created a nice dichotomy of options.
     

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