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Balancing the new Snail and Eternity

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by ls612, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    This thread is for people to post their ideas on how the new settings for Snail and Eternity I uploaded to the SVN last week are working. I'm looking for balance issues, if there are any, so that we can have the best version possible for the V22 release.

    There has also been discussion about adding some new gamespeeds. AIAndy has made that possible now for Max Compat purposes, so if anyone has ideas for stats on those you can post that here as well.
     
  2. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

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    I play on eternity since version 16.
    With the gamespeed update i wondered about the timer as my game time went from around 1000 AD to 1300 BC.

    This made me to start a new game, and boy, there's really something new.
    Researching techs is considerably slower (around 1.5 times) and the time scale seems to fit way better.

    In my current game i'm at turn thousand and have just researched megafauna domestication, my calender tells me that i'm around the year 2700 BC.
    So far i do really enjoy this "slower" gamespeed compared to the former eternity speed where i would have already been in the AD years within thousand turns.
     
  3. Sleeeper

    Sleeeper Warlord

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    Finally tried your new Snail and it's actually runs more smooth, despite less total turns amount (Never reached large turns count in old Snail because tech tree was finishing much faster). Very cool.
     
  4. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Yes, I agree to that - Eternity is better scaled now! :)
     
  5. Petete

    Petete Chieftain

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    Much much better scaled.

    I used to have to wait till something AD to be able to get writing and start diplomacy, this is no longer. the case.
     
  6. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

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    After several days with the new time scale on eternity i feel there's need to adjust the sliders.
    I'm by far not the most historic geek but i wonder if i'm too far ahead of my time researching social contract at 1598 BC.

    Maybe rising research percent from 1500 to 2500 and also rise the percentages for growth, build and whatever it needs to fit into the time scale without killing the fun. :)
     
  7. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Are you playing deity lvl? How many civs? Agressive, ruthless AI? With or without tech brokering?

    For my taste the new Eternity is quite slow at times and I would say leave it as is.
     
  8. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

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    Noble.

    11 at start, which get into 30+ soon

    No need for me.

    No tech brokering, tech trade or diffusion.

    Of course it is, but it's eternity. ;)
     
  9. philipschall

    philipschall Warlord

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    Currently playing Deity around 3400 bc. I'm rather ahead (playing as Persia on GEM, just picked up priesthood), but that's through my own kickass(read:stressful) playing on deity, and my desire to build all wonders in their historical locations. Catacombs of el shoqfa & Sphinx are being built as I type, doubt I'll get the oracle in Athens before someone else. Not even shooting for Inuskusk or Stonehedge :p .
     
  10. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Posted in the wrong thread:

    Quick feedback on the new Eternity Speed: I did a test start on the largest map size (which increases research times too) and Deity Diff (also increase in research times) and you probably need to tweak unit building up a notch, just one, maybe buildings building one notch too, and research needs to be lowered a few %.

    Reasoning:
    I spent most of the first 500 turns building units which I then promptly disbanded for cash since that gave more income than building Lesser Wealth.
    I could do that because I had built all the buildings I had available rather fast compared to the speed of researching, or lack thereof.
    500 turns in, yes I know it's Eternity, and I've only just managed to get Herbalism, Tracking, Oral Tradition and Shelter Building (and all techs needed to get those, of course).
    I did go for the options for more research as soon as I could, and myths of course. Only luck with animals could have gotten me there faster. *grin*

    Cheers

    Edit: Forgot to mention that Golden Ages probably should be increased slightly too, maybe about 25% more than current timing.
    Reason is that if everything takes that much longer to get to then Golden Ages are equally less effective.

    Cheers
     
  11. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Yeah, that's kinda odd. Could you please post a savegame for me? I have tried Eternity for a little while (prefer Snail), and I have been hitting Ancient Age around 3000 BC, and the farthest I've gone is around 700 BC, at which I am only slightly ahead of my time.
    That's OK, I responded to your concerns in the other thread.
     
  12. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

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    As requested, the savegame. :)
     
  13. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    It's because of noble difficulty, I guess. Don't play C2C on noble, step up 2 difficulties at least. I recommend deity or immortal and switching to deity in bug menu the first turn.

    Regarding Speed feedback: I am playing at a SVN rev2102 regular deity GEM 38 (minor civ start) at the moment and being forth in score of all the civs I met, I am researching bead making ~2500 BC while smaller AI are way behind chiefdom still.
    So first: beads have been around in humankind for almost 70000 years as findings in south african caves show and secoundly 'domesticated' fire has been out there for humans a lot longer - should be a earlier tech as well (prior to flint knapping maybe 'collecting fire' from steppe fires or vulcanoes or such quests).

    So, to conclude: the scaling could even go way back to 200000-300000 with the first thousands of years passing a lot faster of course.
     
  14. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    The main problem with going back before 12000BC is Ice Ages and how to implement them, as well as the whole nomadic camp issues.
     
  15. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    Both will come but it is a matter of time.
    The technology already fits far better to an earlier start so better start 50000BC or 200000BC right away instead of balancing for one now and then redoing it later.
     
  16. gcaliber

    gcaliber Chieftain

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    I haven't played much eternity or snail, but the games that I did start it just seemed like everything built way, way to fast compared to research speed and so I stick with marathon for now.
     
  17. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I started as new game to play test with yesterday's SVN, and it seems to me that the opposite is true. For me at least, the reason to play the really slow game speeds (which I generally far prefer) is to be able to get extensive play in each era, and explore the strategies and tactics they have to offer. This means that tech has to move slowly compared to unit production so that you have the ability to experience wars, and so on in each time period, without teching-out of them too fast.

    In the game with the most recent settings (standard map, emperor start, flex diff, eternity) I think unit production is too slow. This has two effects:
    • No time to build up any military strength before you're moving into new tech timeframes that change the military tactics
    • Animal spawn rates are too low (they also scale by the unit production speed)
    The net result is that the first 500 turns basically don't have enough to do in them, because you cannot generate enough units to do anything meaningful militarily, and even hunting is extremely sporadic since the average rate at which you see animals seems to be down at around 1 animal per 10-15 turns (on a reasonably sizeable landmass with a fair number of animal spawning resources and terrains in my case).

    Since this means we've now had two opposite complaints maybe we need game 'speeds' that are the same in terms of overall 'slowness' (in some sense) but have different 'flavors' - i.e. - differing ratios between tech and production for example.
     
  18. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    What game speed are you playing at and at what difficulty Koshling?
    The Handicap XML file has bee modified so that on higher difficulties less animals spawn (as many animals is a good thing). This was opposite before if you remember.

    At Deity and Gigantic I'm not really experiencing that units are produced to slowly, nor that not enough animals spawn. I do agree that the first 500 or so turns there's not all that much to do, due to both factors of speed and difficulty increasing research times. *grin* Explore, of course, and plan ahead. Then again I got to techs where I could start doing things faster then too as I had a lot of turns I could do Lesser Research with, until I got to Tribalism at least.

    Cheers
     
  19. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Yeah, but the start date can easily be changed, and the changes I would make to start at 200kBC would only affect the prehistoric era, so developed savegames would be safe.
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I have been playing on snail and feel the same way. Before you could line up all your buildings and units and for the most part have no gaps for waiting. But now with all the techs and units taking longer to make I am left just pushing "next" for much of the early game were as before the chnage I did not.
     

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