Balancing weak traits

[Dr. Salvador]

I was thinking about some of the leader's traits are being inferior compare to the others, especially Financial traits which generally considered to be imbalance...
Considering this, I would like to propose some change for later Civ4 BTS patch regarding the leader's traits. Here it is:

Spiritual:
Double production speed of Temples, Cristo Redentor wonder, Cathedrals and Monasteries, extra 1 happiness with State Religion

Imperialistic:
200% Great General emergence, 50% faster production of Settlers

Creative:
+3 culture per city.
Double production speed of Library, Theater, and Colosseum.
1 extra happiness with Theater

Expansive:
+2 health per city.
Double production speed of Granary and Harbor.
50% faster production of Workers.

Financial:
+1 commerce on plots with at least 2 commerce.
Double production of Bank

Industrious:
Wonder production increased 50 percent.
Double production speed of Forge, Levee

Charismatic:
+2 happiness per city.
-25% XP needed for unit promotions.
+1 happiness from Monument and Broadcast Tower.

Protective:
Free Drill I and City Garrison I promotions for archery and gunpowder units.
Double production speed of Walls, Castle, Bunkers, Bomb Shelter, Chichen Itza Wonder

I guess that's all.
Any feedback will be appreciated.

Actually, this is based on my opinion, great leaders like Justinian I, Saladin, Isabela, and other advanced european-asian leaders are often being owned by Mayans and Incas with their wretched Financial trait -_-"

 

[Manco Capac]

Where's the balance correction? What I see is pushing the unbalance forward. And going retroactively too because banks were included in Vanilla at some point but taken back because FIN was already strong as it it.

And I'm surprised AGG trait did not undergo some balancing process. It's the weakest trait of all.

I don't see any changes for Protective at all.

Actually, this is based on my opinion, great leaders like Justinian I, Saladin, Isabela, and other advanced european-asian leaders are often being owned by Mayans and Incas with their wretched Financial trait -_-"

Justinian owned? No, he is one of the best AI's being mainly IMP. IMP for AI works marvellously.

 

[Merovech]

Wow, I don't mean to be rude, but your changes make the traits seriously less balanced. I'm guessing that you undervalue spiritual (unless you are suggesting that spiritual no longer gives anarchy-free switches, which would immediately make it one of the worst traits in the game, except for culture games), expansive, and creative pretty hard. Also, why in the world would you buff financial?

 

[Dr. Salvador]

ahahaha xD
Anyway, thanks for the feed back.

There are sources describing creative, imperialistic, and spiritual being moderate to weakest trait overall.

Truly Spiritual's main advantages is No anarchy, but Cristo Redentor wonder seriously put this trait a bit backward if it finished by other industrious leader. Unless, of course, it is being obsolete with certain tech.
I wish it will also double production of at least monastery too. Since spiritual trait leader tends to lead toward religious civ with multi religion.

Financial? For naval maps, cities got 50% bonus commerce from water tiles, (2+1=50% bonus) before counting on cottage economy, which means huge research boost to civilization with early fishing tech.
While money is always one of the crucial key toward research, culture, and espionage,
No doubt, leader with financial trait often become advantageous especially in technology

Warmonger civ often faced disadvantages despite their imperialistic and aggressive trait, since engaging in a war often slow down research and development... Unless of course, they managed to win a war and some good cities.

and...

 

[damerell]

Truly Spiritual's main advantages is No anarchy, but Cristo Redentor wonder seriously put this trait a bit backward if it finished by other industrious leader.

Eh? By the time the Cristo Redentor comes out, the game's half over.

 

[Merovech]

Creative is quite possibly the second most powerful trait, after financial. Spiritual is pretty good, too. Imperialistic is bad, but it's better than Agressive and Protective and sometimes better than Charismatic. If you want balanced traits, try the Krillmod trait changes (note: the mod includes other changes as well, so you'll have to extract the trait changes from it). It makes Organized slightly too powerful at higher levels because it's made for mp games that are normally played from noble to emperor level, but still weaker than base Financial, and, all in all, the traits are very well balanced.

 

[Manco Capac]

No, IMP is not bad. It's bad only if one plays low levels.

 

[Merovech]

Sorry, multiplayer bias. IMP is worse than Financial, Expansive, Creative, Spiritual, Philosophical, and Organized (except at very low levels). It is better than Charismatic when playing on a high happiness map or against an AI that won't call you on your early game land grabs. It is strictly better than Aggressive and Protective.

So, not bad, but mediocre. It is fun, however.

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh if it's MP bias, I believe in your judgement.

 

[Ghpstage]

There are sources describing creative, imperialistic, and spiritual being moderate to weakest trait overall.

There are also sources that say that financial is overpowered, philosopical is weak and if you look at the IGN guide you will even find a source saying
"The Incans and Zulus are the weakest two civilizations in the game, and because of Huayna Capac's attributes, the Incans are easily the worse of the two."
....

Theres certainly nothing wrong with Spiritual despite the Golden Age buff making it weaker relative to other traits (much more so than Christo Redentor). It didn't get all bad news in BTS though, they did add the Apostolic Palace and espionage.
The biggest issue with this trait has always been the effort and knowledge needed to use it well, thats the main reason you can find people who think its seriously weak.

On the flip side Financial is often thought of as overpowered by many lower-mid level players, as, at those levels, its practically idiot proof combined with being quite powerful.

Imp and Cre are primarily hammer and time saving traits that work in the early game, and if your not being pressured by an AI then this is going to seem pretty trivial.

Actually, this is based on my opinion, great leaders like Justinian I, Saladin, Isabela, and other advanced european-asian leaders are often being owned by Mayans and Incas with their wretched Financial trait -_-"

If this is based on watching AIs then disregard it, as the AI is not only atrocious at making use of traits, its also much more heavily impacted by the personalities found in the XML than traits.

 

[Pangaea]

Aah, IGN. As clueless as ever!

I quite like spiritual actually. Going to whatever civic (or religion) you want whenever you want is a good trait to have, instead of having anarchy or waiting for a GA. Over the course of a game all those turns add up, meaning a lot of extra beakers and hammers. I've heard it can also be very good diplomatically.

 

[Merovech]

Oh if it's MP bias, I believe in your judgement.

I should clarify, of course, that not every MP player feels exactly the same way I do, although the general gist is there for most, and that ladder games and other fast-paced, quick and dirty, lots of war games are a completely different matter. I'm not very good at those (I mostly play PBEM and Pitboss, with 4+ players spaced reasonably far apart, which tend to give a lot of time to think and plan and expansion economic development arestill king), and though I think that the general trends (like financial being top-tier and protective being low-tier) are the same, the exact rankings of the traits are probably different.


Also, yeah, the IGN guide is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen written about civ 4, on par with an old MP strategy guide here, which was actually posted as a strategy article (I believe it was finally moved away from there about a year ago) that suggested always going settler first and then Stonehenge, without any workers or military.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Protective: All units start with drill IV. All of them. Drill IV workers (#luluselessbutdoitanyway), drill IV ironclads, drill IV axes, drill IV horse archers.

I bet people wouldn't call it a bad trait THEN!

 

[MilesBeyond]

I would actually prefer to see CRE become a trait that's actually useful for accumulating a lot of culture, rather than quick border pops, so my preference would be to change that trait more to something like +1 culture/city, +10% culture/city, or something like that.

That being said, I realize I'm in the minority on this, as most people prefer that trait for REXing over culture-whoring.


IMHO really the only traits that need to be adjusted are AGG and PRO. If AGG did something like +10% production of military units, that might be cool, though that could be a bit too much, especially when it comes to early rushes (though, if I understand this correctly, a faster production speed wouldn't lower the cost to chop, right? Only a lower production cost would do that?).

The unfortunate reality with PRO is that it seems to be intended largely for the AI, to make them more difficult to conquer, rather than a solid trait for humans. Right now it's really only good for mass-drafting Rifles. The point is, I feel like for it to become useful, it would have to be either rebuilt from the ground up, or replaced entirely, rather than simply "tweaked." The issue is that if you're warring a lot, you're not going to want to emphasize defence, and if you're not warring a lot, you're going to prefer traits that boost your econ (FIN, ORG, PHI).

I mean, yes, Churchill's drafted Redcoats is a well-known and effective strategy, but that's a very specific application.

Also, yeah, the IGN guide is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen written about civ 4, on par with an old MP strategy guide here, which was actually posted as a strategy article (I believe it was finally moved away from there about a year ago) that suggested always going settler first and then Stonehenge, without any workers or military.

Hmmmm, sounds like someone was intentionally setting up new players so he could rush them

 

[calibur]

Perhaps protective and creative could be combined to make cultural defenses stronger and make culture flipping tiles & cities quicker

As in, cultural defense +25% and tiles only require 40% culture to be flipped, 90% for cities to start flipping

 

[Dr. Salvador]

Spiritual is nice indeed. Though the idea of switching civics and religion for diplomatic, military, and development is quite complicated. Waiting 5 turns before can change civic means changing civic frequently is not a comfortable task. Switching from caste system to slavery, or burreaucracy to vassalage, org religion to theocracy, requires a lot of attention, especially to micromanagement of specialist. It is indeed suits for advanced players to exploit their primary use, and for newbie for more comfortable play.

PRO's drill I promotion is shouldn't be taken lightly, since it also grants access to counter promotions, and drill II to anti cavalry promotion. I would consider longbowmen and crossbowmen rule the battlefield if tagged along with pikes.
It is also suits for defensive warmonger. No doubt, Charlemagne can be a perfect candidate for this strategy

Since I currently playing with Terra map, I have no choice but to make good use of military approach, or my treacherous neighbor will choke my breath...

Oh btw, AGG and PRO trait should have bonus toward siege units too.
I think.

"God is in the side with the best artillery" -Napoleon Bonaparte

I'll reconsider the change later...

 

[capnvonbaron]

Oh gawd... not another "balance the traits" thread...

 

[MilesBeyond]

PRO's drill I promotion is shouldn't be taken lightly, since it also grants access to counter promotions, and drill II to anti cavalry promotion. I would consider longbowmen and crossbowmen rule the battlefield if tagged along with pikes.
It is also suits for defensive warmonger. No doubt, Charlemagne can be a perfect candidate for this strategy

Yeah, like I said, PRO in the right situation can be pretty effective, just those "right situations" tend to be few and far between, especially compared to other traits (there are virtually no situations in which extra commerce on most tiles is not effective, for example).

However, it is also worth noting that functionally, free Drill I only saves you 2 XP. At the end of the day, CHA beats PRO at its own game while allowing far more options.

This is why anytime you hear someone advocate PRO, they're usually advocating Churchill. PRO and CHA makes for some really speedy Drill IV units, and when your UU is a Rifleman...

Could you imagine Churchill drafting vanilla Redcoats? LOL. I always wondered why they nerfed Redcoats and not Praets but that does make a bit more sense now. Not a lot more, mind you.

 

[Woreczko]

Drill I (as well as Combat I) saves you as much xp, as your last promotion was worth. You can take shock for 2 xp (normally 5), formation for 5 xp (normally 10 xp) and so on.

In that free drill I and combat I are better than charismatic discount. On the downside, they apply only to a limited set of units and a limited set of promotions (neither drill nor combat puts you closer to getting mobility promo for example).

Weakness of Aggresive and Protective comes from the fact, that most players play against AI, where it`s generally easy to avoid wars in tech parity - where these traits really shine.

 

[Windsor]

However, it is also worth noting that functionally, free Drill I only saves you 2 XP. At the end of the day, CHA beats PRO at its own game while allowing far more options.

The XP saved depends on how much XP you got. You also get free CG1, but lets ignore that.

Free drill 1 gives you

At 0xp you get Drill1 giving you 2XP worth of promos
At 2xp you get Drill1+2 which is worth 3XP more than than non-pro
At 5XP you get Drill1+2+3 which is worth 5XP more than non-pro.
and so on...

In practice you are getting the LAST promotion free and that is potentially worth a lot more than 2XP.

And Protective needs 3 less XP to create Drill4 units than Charismatic (10XP vs 13XP)