Balancing Wonders Feedback

[ThichN]

Hello!

I'd appreciate some feedback from the community here about balancing wonders. Imagine wonders are split between 7 factions (listed below). Does this list look balanced to you, with the caveat that each faction will have other associated abilities? I know that is vague, so imagine just the wonders for now. I suppose what I mean is that it's OK if the balance is +/- as much as 25% towards one faction, but any more, I'd want to switch these around somehow.

Imagine as well that all wonders never become obsolete. And feel free to suggest that a wonder from the "All Can Build" list be moved to a specific faction! I'd really love any input or suggestions on this stuff.

Faction 1
Oracle
Michelangelo’s Chapel
Eiffel Tower
Cure for Cancer

Faction 2
Hanging Gardens
Marco Polo’s Embassy
Statue of Liberty
United Nations

Faction 3
Pyramids
King Richard’s Crusade
Hoover Dam

Faction 4
Great Wall
Sun Tzu’s War Academy
Woman’s Suffrage

Faction 5
Lighthouse
Magellan’s Expedition

Leonardo’s Workshop
SETI Program

Faction 6
Great Library
Copernicus’ Observatory
Isaac Newton’s College

Faction 7
Colossus
Shakespeare’s Theater
Adam Smith’s Trading Company

All Can Build
Darwin’s Voyage
J.S. Bach’s Cathedral
Manhattan Project
Apollo Program

 

[techumseh]

I'm wondering why you are 'stacking' similar types of wonders, eg. Faction 1 has several happiness wonders, Faction 5 has both naval wonders, and so on?

 

[ThichN]

I'm wondering why you are 'stacking' similar types of wonders, eg. Faction 1 has several happiness wonders, Faction 5 has both naval wonders, and so on?

Excellent question!
The factions here are meant to be specific types of factions that specialize in certain aspects of the game, rather than catch-all.

This is sort of the trick, though. I'd like the factions to have that specialization, but would also like them to have access 1 or some wonders that might offset overt penalties associated. There are other ways to do this in-game, especially with lua, but this is my starting framework.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

So much of this depends on what kind of scenario this is.

Playing a regular single player game at Deity level, I would choose faction 1 for Mike's chapel. But in a game where all the tribes already have a lot cities with improvements, Mike's is less valuable. I understand that in 1v1 multiplayer, Lighthouse is extremely powerful. But Lighthouse+Magellan's is mediocre if you have a game where ships have 20+ movement points, and you can build port facilities. Leo's depends on how many times units become obsolete, and how much better the new versions become.

Faction 2's value depends on whether other tribes can build diplomats, and whether everyone has contact from the start of the game. In a regular game (without AI hostility), Marco Polo is quite valuable in the early game for being able to trade techs and find out where to send your caravans.

Great Library is considered actively harmful in single player, since you get techs you don't want. Scenarios don't have tech hiding, so you don't have to worry about your tech plan being ruined, but you still have the carrying cost of extra technologies to worry about. Could be quite powerful in a scenario where techs are really expensive, but then the other wonders have little value. The single city wonders should probably be placed all for the same faction, and that can just be the "small" faction.

Faction 7 is contradictory. Colossus and Shakespeare's say to build one city really big, but Adam Smith's says to get a whole bunch of cities with only a couple cheap improvements.

 

[ThichN]

Thank you @Prof. Garfield these insights are useful. I too wondered about Great Library, especially because I don't quite have my tech tree sorted. I may just do away with it, in which case, Faction 6 will be -1 wonder, but could potentially shuffle Darwin's Voyage into it's list.

Faction 7 does seem odd, thanks for bringing that up. I was imagining a money-making power that starts small but can become expansive throughout the course of the game.

This is a scenario in which all factions start with 1 city, and branch out from there -- similar to the base game. I should really post a thread about general scenario development. I am still honing in on concepts and want to be certain of my outline before a more general workshoppy thread. But I'm probably overthinking that. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Buck2005]

I support the opinion of Prof. Garfield that faction №1 is by far the strongest, especially given your statement that this is a 1 city start game (that is, the closest thing to a regular campaign on a random map). Michelangelo on "deity" is the universally recognized "imba" of Civ2. Therefore, if you want to achieve balance in the game, you should limit the duration of this wonder of the world. Also, it should be noted that the Cure for Cancer is also a very strong wonder of the world, much stronger than the Hanging Gardens (which are subject to a special modifier that reduces their effect depending on the number of cities, while Cure for Cancer always absolutely works). [Update: This was an incorrect statement.]

In general, it is not very clear what you are trying to achieve with this grouping of factions. Your distribution of the wonders of the world reminds me of the experience of 20+ years ago, when in multiplayer we tried to experiment with "scientific", "trade", "military" and other factions, pre-distributing the wonders of the world in approximately the same way as your factions. As far as I remember, the faction similar to your №1 faction has always and unconditionally won. We did not return to this experience again. Therefore, you should probably first of all try to "fairly", as far as possible, distribute the wonders of the world that give happiness to the townspeople among the factions. Or (I would do in your place) - completely remove them from the game.

 

[JPetroski]

(which are subject to a special modifier that reduces their effect depending on the number of cities, while Cure for Cancer always absolutely works).

I've never heard of this - do you happen to know the mechanism off hand?

 

[techumseh]

So much of this depends on what kind of scenario this is.

Playing a regular single player game at Deity level, I would choose faction 1 for Mike's chapel. But in a game where all the tribes already have a lot cities with improvements, Mike's is less valuable. I understand that in 1v1 multiplayer, Lighthouse is extremely powerful. But Lighthouse+Magellan's is mediocre if you have a game where ships have 20+ movement points, and you can build port facilities. Leo's depends on how many times units become obsolete, and how much better the new versions become.

Faction 2's value depends on whether other tribes can build diplomats, and whether everyone has contact from the start of the game. In a regular game (without AI hostility), Marco Polo is quite valuable in the early game for being able to trade techs and find out where to send your caravans.

Great Library is considered actively harmful in single player, since you get techs you don't want. Scenarios don't have tech hiding, so you don't have to worry about your tech plan being ruined, but you still have the carrying cost of extra technologies to worry about. Could be quite powerful in a scenario where techs are really expensive, but then the other wonders have little value. The single city wonders should probably be placed all for the same faction, and that can just be the "small" faction.

Faction 7 is contradictory. Colossus and Shakespeare's say to build one city really big, but Adam Smith's says to get a whole bunch of cities with only a couple cheap improvements.

There are techs you don't want?

 

[Buck2005]

I've never heard of this - do you happen to know the mechanism off hand?

I don't know the exact numbers. However, you can do a simple and quick experience: open a random game, and in cheat mode, build 20-30 cities (in one of which place the Hanging Gardens). From some (as far as I remember, around 12-15) city, the effect of the Gardens will begin to disappear.

UPDATED: I have now made such an experiment, however, it was not possible to reproduce such an effect. It seems that the happiness modifier is calculated not from the number of cities, but from the number of inhabitants in a particular city ... In general, I do not know the exact mechanics of this wonder of the world, however, from my own experience I know for that a certain modifier is there for sure .

 

[Prof. Garfield]

There are techs you don't want?

Chivalry makes the horseman obsolete, which you might want to delay to maintain a 20 shield unit for rushbuying. That's a pretty clear cut example. It is typically advisable to avoid getting warrior code, since that means you might accidentally get feudalism from a hut, losing the warrior rushbuy slot before gunpowder or your desire to get theology.

There is also the fact that every extra tech makes subsequent techs cost more, and there is a further research cost increase for getting ahead of your "key civ". Not having a tech (especially if you can trade for a tech later in the tree) means not carrying that cost, or at least delaying it.

Perhaps the most notorious reason is that each tech in the game is in group 0, 1, or 2, and every time you start to research a tech, one of these groups is hidden. (The first tech you can research is always available, so there is always something to research.) Getting "free" techs at random intervals means you can't plan your path through the tech tree very well. Moreover, it means you can't later trade for those techs if you need to change the hidden tech group.

In any case, if you're playing classic (i.e. without the always hostile AI), you can usually trade for the tech you need once the first tribe gets it, making Great Library largely useless for its supposed purpose if you've built Marco Polo's Embassy anyway.

I don't know the exact numbers. However, you can do a simple and quick experience: open a random game, and in cheat mode, build 20-30 cities (in one of which place the Hanging Gardens). From some (as far as I remember, around 12-15) city, the effect of the Gardens will begin to disappear.

Are you sure this isn't just the "riot factor"? As your empire grows, the number of citizens content by default goes down (in the rules.txt, the "riot factor" is the parameter governing this). Here's a link (which has other links in the top page). At deity level, it doesn't take too many cities to make the first citizen unhappy by default. This means that the hanging gardens bonus is turning the red citizen back to blue, rather than the blue citizen to light blue.

 

[Buck2005]

Are you sure this isn't just the "riot factor"? As your empire grows, the number of citizens content by default goes down (in the rules.txt, the "riot factor" is the parameter governing this). Here's a link (which has other links in the top page). At deity level, it doesn't take too many cities to make the first citizen unhappy by default. This means that the hanging gardens bonus is turning the red citizen back to blue, rather than the blue citizen to light blue.

Yes, I conducted an experiment, and made sure that I was wrong on this issue. Hanging Gardens and the Cure for Cancer really work the same way.

 

[Buck2005]

In any case, if you're playing classic (i.e. without the always hostile AI), you can usually trade for the tech you need once the first tribe gets it, making Great Library largely useless for its supposed purpose if you've built Marco Polo's Embassy anyway.

In a classic game, it is sometimes very rational to build some wonders, which may not be needed (or even harmful, as you rightly say about the Great Library), however, are highly undesirable in the hands of another enemy nation. In addition to the Library, the Great Wall can also be attributed to the number of "unnecessary" wonders of the world. In the classics, the easiest and fastest way to achieve victory is an aggressive game to destroy other opponents by military means. Therefore, it does not make sense to spend on the defense of their cities. However, capturing enemy cities protected by walls may require unnecessary expenditure of military units. Therefore, it is often rational to build the Great Wall yourself.
The Great Library, in the hands of an enemy far away on the map, can also lead to undesirable consequences in the long run. Therefore, it is also sometimes worth building it yourself (if, of course, the possibilities allow). But anyway - you're right, it's really a low priority wonder of the world.

 

[ThichN]

Thank you @Buck2005 and others for the feedback here, very useful! I've posted an overall development thread so you can see better where I'm coming from. I'd love any more advice on balancing the factions through whatever means possible.