BAM2 The Mongolian Gauntlet (Redux)

[Bam-Bam]

Here we go again--this time the AIs can build settlers

Game Concept

I cannot claim pride of authorship in this concept, it is a repeat of Sirian's (and others') concept from Realms Beyond Civilization Epic 12, The Gauntlet. For more information on the original, look here.
This one managed to humble a few players accustomed to winning deity games.

The basics follow:

* No purchasing workers. No workers through diplomacy by any means, including peace.
* No upgrading units. Ever. You build a unit, it remains that type of unit "for life".
* You may not pillage your own lands. (Includes no disconnecting your own resources).
* No trading away of your last unit of any given resource. You must keep one for yourself.
* No scrolling through cities during the production phase, "between turns".
* No prebuilding of any kind. No placeholders. Ever. You are NOT allowed to change projects. Or rather, if you change city projects from one to another, you MUST wipe out any shields stored in the box by first changing to Wealth, which will erase all but one shield, then (and only then) may you assign a city to a new item.
*No merging of workers or settlers into cities.


There is no restriction on changing projects when the shield storage box is empty (because a project has just completed, or if the city has been running wealth while "waiting" for a new option to come available). Note that forced labor or cash rushbuys are still allowed, as is disbanding units in cities (with the accompanying shield conversion); but you are not allowed to rush a cheap item from zero storage, change to wealth and retain one shield, then rush a large item on the same turn (to shortcut the double cost of rushing from zero). Only one rush per city per turn, for this game.

Difficulty: Deity
Civilization: Mongols
World Size: Standard
Opponents: Seven Random
Terrain: Continents, 70% water, rugged
Climate: Cold
Barbarians: Roaming
Rules: Standard
Victory: Any

Nota Bene: I have modified the Keshik so it treats both mountains AND hills as grassland.

As far as other rules--avoid all RB exploits. Also, avoid the RCP strategy, let's build cities without trying to expose the mathematics of the Civ3 rank corruption calculator. To avoid the rank corruption bug--we will keep our palace where it starts.

Here is the start

Roster

Bam-Bam
Hotrod
Urugharakh
6thGenTexan
OPEN
JMB (PLEASE CONFIRM--out until October 3)

We have ONE open slot, since Sirian sems to prefer Galactic pursuits in lieu of terran ones these days

 

[Bam-Bam]

Early

OK start--looks like lots of jungle and mountains, even if it is not icy. Found on spot. Scout scout warrior

Middle

Meet Japan. WC, pottery and 12 g for wheel. 1st Hut gives BW. Meet China. Wheel and 6g for Masonry. Cannot make BW for CB trade--Japan must almost have it.


Late

Meet Shaka. Sell him the Wheel for CB and 18g. We are up masony on Zulu and Japan, up CB on China. They are definately making setters. Here is our situation.

Hotrod--take 20. Get that settler from the hut.

This is not a screw you start, but with all these AIs and all those jungles and mountains, it is going to be fun. Chop finishes next turn. Get those settlers going. I have only seen one barb, and Japan got him.

The Redux

Bam-Bam
Hotrod (UP--play 20)
Urugharakh (ON DECK-10 turns from here on out)
6thGenTexan
OPEN
JMB (PLEASE CONFIRM--out until October 3)

24 hours got it, 48 to complete

 

[hotrod0823]

Got it but may not start until tomorrow night.

 

[hotrod0823]

Bam1 redux

3000 BC (0): Wow rugged is not the word. This is no easy start. There is not even a clear cut second city . Look to get a settler to at least claim the horses and try to keep China out. Lux to 10%.

2950 BC (1): Gotta luv irrigation through a hill town. Irrigate the deer. Stay on Max food to get to size 4, then granary will be completed and we will have settlers. Sell CB to China for 40 of his 41 gold. Pretty good I think for a cheap tech . The hut is not a settler but rather increases our coffers by 25 gold. Found the Zulu capital to the North. NO doubt he will ask me to move. Just passing through anyway.

2900 BC (2): Watch a japanese warrior die to a barb. Will stay max food for one more turn then swap to the forest tile.

2850 BC (3): MM to get granary in 5 grow in 6. Up lux to 20% because lost gold from the water.

2800 BC (4): It pains me to say this but had to pass up a Masonry for worker deal with Japan. . Because we are only gaining 1 gpt anyway I put research on at 20%. a real long shot but IW in 38 turns. .

2750 BC (5): Watch and smile as a zulu archer dies attacking a Japan warrior. They are at war. IF that stays that way for a while 2frs shouldn't be too hard. Playing with MM to make sure the silo is full when the city grows.

2710 BC (6): The barbs are coming but I am not worried Yet.

2670 BC (7):

2630 BC (8): Granary completed starts a settler. Warrior wins vs. barbs but doesn't promote. New contact with Korea. We can pickup Alphabet for Masonry, wheel and 100 gold but there is nothing I can get from the others and a min run for writing may be possible but I think highly unlikely at this point. Math is another option as well but paying 2nd civ with nothing in returns seems like a bad idea I don't do it.

2590 BC (9): Lux to 30% at size 4 but started roading the incence. settler and growth in 5. Now here is something useful. Zulus have IW. And Korea pickedup Writing. Okay Korea give Alphabet and we trade Wheel, Masonry and 68 gold. We can't afford Writing yet. Alphabet, Masonry and 30 gold to Zulu for Iron Working. So far so good. Masonry to Japan for 20 gold. IW contact with Japan and 30gold gets us Writing from Korea. Decide to hold the zulu contact for now. Can only get 30 gold for it. Begin a 40 run on Math.

2550 BC (10): Good new is we have nearby Iron. BTW China and Korea ar at War too. We are up on all civs in tech except Korea.

2510 BC (11):

2470 BC (12):

2430 BC (13):

2390 BC (14): Build our first settler start a warrior. Begin moving the settler and our lone warrior toward the horses in to the NW. Our treasury is bleeding but can be increased if need be with a few trades I hold off for now.

2350 BC (15):

2310 BC (16):

2270 BC (17):

2230 BC (18): Writing to Zulu for HBR and 70 gold. Korea will pay 80 gold for HBR but I decide to hold it.

2190 BC (19): Moving the settler into a bit of an aggressive settlement near china to claim the horses.

2150 BC (20): Found Ta-Tu on the horses starts a temple that can be changed. Karakorum builds a warriors starts a settler, due in 5/5. We are up HBR on Korea and contact with Zulu. Pairy with Zulu except contact with Korea. Writing, HBR and contact with Japan over China. Alphabet/writing, HBR over Japan. Math is due in 29 turns. Both cities can be changed. I think we can grab the north Iron and the wines. We need workers bad. Many were for sale. Most I have seen in a game. Korea had 3 or 4 every turn. They were fighting China and Japan was/is fighting Zulus.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bam2-2150BC.zip

 

[Urugharakh]

I made a big mistake in not checking the game after Bam-Bams start resulting in a bad placement of Ta-Tu. The city should have been placed one tile northeast. That position would have had less overlap with Canton reducing the danger of an early war and increasing the value of Canton once we capture it. It would be on a river for additional commerce, has 2 river bonus grassland without expansion and still secures the horses. It has less overlap with a future city placed on the southwestern wines. As we can't afford the temple at Ta-Tu at the moment I train a warrior and a much needed worker now. Afterwards the best option might be training a settler which will complete at size 2 abandoning the city and refounding it one tile northeast. This will waste 30 shields, but we get those back soon due to the way better city placement. Alternatively we might try for the temple in Ta-Tu after my turn and hope China will stay at war with Korea for a long time. Then prepare for war with China asap and raize Canton. Hm, not sure what is better.

Our trading position is superb. I sell our remaining contacts for 81g, because the opportunity will be gone soon with enough cash available and everyone has at least one trading partner not at war with.

2070 BC Korea discovered mysticism and sold it around. So Japan gets writing for mysticism and 3g.

Trained 3 warriors.
Trained 1 settler.
Trained 1 worker.
Founded Kazan.

Killed 2 barbarian warrior without loss, one defending on a mountain east of Ta-Tu, the other while advancing towards Kazans founding position.

We need to chop that forest near Karakorum, not working it. The latter will waste our food bonus supplied by the game. There will be a forest shop available in 3 turns. Make sure not wasting the 10 shields. A settler will do fine as will another warrior and then barracks. I would prefer the settler.

We should order our scouts back and disband them.

Game

 

[6thGenTexan]

I've got it. I will go ahead and move Ta-Tu. WE do not have a large amount of good land where we are so we sould make the most of it. An early city on a river alwasy helps when building Hoover's. On the forest chop, do you mean chop the forest with the game or the one without the game? Will be playing tonight, in about eight hours so I'll wait for the answer.

-6gntxn

 

[Urugharakh]

Originally posted by 6thGenTexan
On the forest chop, do you mean chop the forest with the game or the one without the game?

The game forest is already chopped, but we are currently working 2 forest tiles while the grassland is unimproved - naturally because of the barbs - and one forest was roaded instead of chopped.

 

[Bam-Bam]

I vote to move Ta-tu. Besides, we all know what happens in deity varient games where Hotrod's settler placement gets vetoed...

 

[hotrod0823]

Alright that does it I quit. Honestly I was very very torn and set for about 20 minutes staring at the screen as to where to put that damn city. I give up! No matter what I do I get the from now on I will just build units and play like the darn settlers don't exist.

In all seriousness I am not surprised. My original thought was on the river NE of the current spot and my only reason that I can recall is to avoid overlap with the future iron city to the north.

 

[hotrod0823]

Our trading position is superb. I sell our remaining contacts for 81g, because the opportunity will be gone soon with enough cash available and everyone has at least one trading partner not at war with.

At least my trades didn't suck

 

[Bam-Bam]

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Alright that does it I quit. Honestly I was very very torn and set for about 20 minutes staring at the screen as to where to put that damn city. I give up! No matter what I do I get the from now on I will just build units and play like the darn settlers don't exist.

Par for the course when you play in games with Sirian and Lee. I guess some of it rubs off. Hey, at least you didn't get the defiant dogpile like I did in my first LK game, or prematurely end the game because of lack of restraint like I did in the last game I played with Sirian...

Seriously--no worries.

 

[Urugharakh]

Originally posted by hotrod0823
Alright that does it I quit. Honestly I was very very torn and set for about 20 minutes staring at the screen as to where to put that damn city. I give up!
In all seriousness I am not surprised. My original thought was on the river NE of the current spot and my only reason that I can recall is to avoid overlap with the future iron city to the north.

Don't worry too much. We are all responsible for what happend. Anyone could have supplied a dot map. I don't publish one even now, because I always change my personal dotmaps every few turn according to game developments. Human strength is flexibility not applying dotmaps without thought. The AI is way better in following an algorithm. We humans can depart from an algorithm. That is the main reason we usually win deity games.

When in doubt next time, remember we can ask for support and we can break rules provided we have a good reason for doing so. It would show skill asking for advise in the forum and delaying the submission for one or two days in case of a difficult decision. When in doubt there is no reason not playing one turn less or leaving some units to be handled by the next player announcing your intention in the forum. Contrary if you feel absolute certain about something difficult to explain, there is no reason not to extend your turns slightly to make sure it happens exactly as intended.

Rules are good and necessary and should be followed. Otherwise chaos reigns. But only AI follows rules blind. We humans can and should break them occasionally provided we have a good reason for doing so.

 

[Sirian]

I would suggest resettling two tiles to the NE, on the BG tile, and a second settler two tiles south of current TaTu, on fresh water, pulling in the wheat and closing out the AI's eligibility in the area, as well as better spacing between cities. If you move one tile NE, you may get a nasty overlap AI city to the SW, much like they did in ST2.

Poor Hotrod. But hey, just knowing that some of my original TDG pupils can now play on Deity offers some consolation to me. Dotmapping is a fine art. Opinions differ, and so do considerations. There is rarely "one best" plan.

- Sirian

 

[Urugharakh]

I tried some dotmapping and actually developed 3 dotmaps. As Sirian wrote, there is more than one possibility and there is usually no best option.

My first intention during my turn was

The southern red dot would be on a wine (bad) and of fresh water (bad), but would grab most available tiles (good) and will be a very strong city after rails with the possibility of working 4 mountains.
The northern red dot has already been discussed. It has 2 tiles overlap with Canton (bad) and locally the best tile for a city - plains on river near grassland - (good).
The northern orange dot would be my natural place for the iron grab city.
The blue and yellow dots will have to be arranged to correspond to each other. The exact position will depent on the tiles currently under the fog. I suggest sending our scout currently in Ta-Tu right to the eastern yellow spot so we can make our decision.

Then Sirian suggested

The southern red dot is a very strong spot, on fresh water (very good) important strategic position and strong surrounding land with food bonus. This spot is much stonger than its brother in the previous picture. The only disadvantage is wasting 7 sea tiles. Nasty later in the game, but not terrible, since the only easy win will be a military victory. (See my comments at the beginning of my Epic 12 report.)
The northern red spot has no overlap with Canton (good) and is on a bonus grassland (bad since there are not many available)
Orange, blue and yellow dot will be induced natural by the red dots, at least im my opinion.

I was really impressed with the strength of Sirians southern red spot but somehow didn't liked wasting one of our few bonus grasslands for a first ring city. So I had the idea of moving Sirians northern red spot one tile northwest.

Now we still hav the strong southern red spot. The northern one will have one tile overlap with Canton (bad) but 2 bonus graslands available (very good).
The orange spot follows naturally, while the northern blue and western yellow, resp. the southern blue and eastern yellow correspond to each other and the choice should be made after clearing the fog.

This would be my preferred dotmap, with both red spots settled first and the yellow ones last. Our western souts heading home for disbanding should be able of performing partial blockades ensuring the red spots if this should become necessary. But deciding on the exact placements of our next 3 cities is not my task and I will be happy with any of the 3 provided pictures or with a new good idea from someone else.

 

[6thGenTexan]

Quick turns once I got around to them.
1700Chineese start The Colossus.
1675Spanish complete The Oricle.
1650Kazan Warrior--Worker
Karaorum gets scientist until settler completes nest turn
1625Karaorum settler--settler
Barbs have boats.
1575Korea and Zululand now have MM. Both got int IBT. No use buying it now since China and Japan have no $.
Shaka demands TM and 26g which he gets.
1550 Sell our WM to Shaka for his and 56g. .
1525 Kazan worker--barrack China built Tsingtao NW of iron between river and lake. We are going to need vets soon.
Romans complete The Pyramids.

Settler completed in Karakorum and is waiting for direction. I vote going NE on the point near the 2 fish. Kara can build a barrack before the chop completes, or get one more settler out with the chop. Ta-Tu is 2 turns away fom building the relocation settler. The other settler is on the first of the 2 wines. He can build here or go over to the second and draw in more coastal squares. Two scouts helped the Ta-Tu settler and I left the third near Osaka to watch the battles. Map Making cam wait another 9 turns for Math. The Lux slider is now at 0 after the 2 settlers.

Game

 

[6thGenTexan]

Cross post with the dot maps. One settler is 2 turns of the 2nd and 3rd souther red dots. Ta-Tu is 2 turns from disbanding. China has a city 1 tile SE of 1st and 2nd orange dots. New settler should head to a blue dot and get one more out of Kara for the yellow dot.

 

[Bam-Bam]

We are in a four-person rotation until JMB gets back/confirms back in the game. I am going to wait until he returns before I play the next set of turns. I like Urug's last cut at the dotmap, but want to see how the recent chinese settlements play into this. More this evening after I view the save.

 

[JMB]

Hey Bam-Bam,

Sorry about not confirming ealier, but I was out of the country and didn't have internet access. I can jump into the roster whenever. Thanks for holding my spot for me...

JMB

 

[Bam-Bam]

JMB--Welcome back!

You can take ten turns now, if you like. We just happen to be right at where you were slated in the roster. Note that one of our cities is about to produce a settler at size 2 so that is can be moved. As you can see, we have had a couple of discussions about the dotmap--I tend to side with Urugharakh's last one--but your call on what to do with the settlers that are available on your turns.

 

[JMB]

Ok, I've got it and should have it back sometime today...

JMB