Banging head against the wall.

[Xirtic88]

I've read a few of the strategy guides and have learned a lot about this game but I still struggle with early game survival. I played many games on Noble but have since went back a difficulty level. In my last game, which is a typical example of my struggles, I played Mansa Musa, standard size, continents. I bee-lined to polytheism and founded hinduism. Great! I found myself in the middle of a penninsula with Spain just above me. I did worker, warrior, warrior, settler, warrior, settler. I settled two cities to close the gap and cut her off from MY penninsula. It worked for the most part but she is annoyed with me and won't sign a open border agreement. I suspect she will likely attack me soon. I successfully built Stonehenge and The Oracle in my main city and since I had Code of Laws I chose ?Civil Service?. I can't remember if that is the exact name of the tech but it kicks butt this early. Anyways I built another warrior, settler from a secondary city while my wonders were being built to totally seal off Spain. Now I have four cities, one of which is on a flood plain with a cow tile and a couple hills. It will make a great FE city. My main city has four Silk tiles, a cow, and copper, and I have big money making plans there. Oh crap, I have yet to complete a barracks in any city as I went worker first and suddenly barbs are everywhere and they start trashing my improvements. Before I can get reinforcements, I am overwhelmed by barbs and Spain is moving troops down. Uuugggg.
I try to learn from my mistake and reload the game to 4000BC. I decide to build a barracks just after worker and then get archery. I soon see Spanish cities being built where I had good cities the prior game. I pump out a couple archers and then go for a settler. Crap, someone built Stonehenge. I didn't get a religion either. Now I am getting frustrated. I go for Oracle but I am nowhere near Code of Laws. Barbs start showing up and I have to deal with them as well as Spains expansion. Someone beat me to the Oracle. Ok, what did I learn?
I have tried different methods and have managed to have both Stonehenge and the Oracle and survived the early barb surge but sooner or later someone declares war on me. I love it when people say "build a barracks and pump out troops". Ok, that's well and good but it takes a long darn time to 1. Get copper, archery, barracks, troops, built up and 2. It isn't like the AI isn't doing the same thing.

 

[AnaNg]

Know your AI opponents.

If you don't share a religion with Izzy she will be out to get you the entire game. If she's around and you're weak then switch to her religion - heck you're Mansa so spiritual, you don't even have to go through a turn of Anarchy.

You don't need a barracks to build troops - yeah you won't get the promotion, but you said one of your cities had copper so Axemen are going to in most of the time against barbs. So build unpromoted axemen (generally speaking getting archery early is sort of a waste of time). Also, you have copper so you should have slavery which means that you can whip out (sacrifice people to finish production) axemen to deal with the barb onslaught or any other immediate threats.

You seem to be really concerned about getting SH and Oracle, Oracle is great but not completely necessary (SH is nice but not at the expense of defense) and if you find yourself being overrun by things then really you should be building troops not wonders, though with 4 cities at least one of those should have been consistently pumping out troops (and by troops I mean axemen, not warriors or archers) almost from the time you settled it. That city should have nothing but a granary and a barracks early on, all the rest of production should be troops.

 

[Byrath]

Sounds like you've got the basics down really well and just need to put it all together. Honestly it sounds like you know the game pretty well, I'm surprised you have trouble on Noble. Maybe it was just a bad starting location?
Anyway some ideas..
If you aren't starting with Mysticism, forget the first two religions. Odds are pretty good that you won't get it anyway, and even if you were guaranteed to get it, thats a whole lot of turns that would be better spent on those crucial early worker techs. I've found Judaism to be generally easy to found, its surprising how late its available sometimes. Failing that, Christianity and Confucianism are pretty easy to get if you want it.

I rarely go for the Oracle unless I have marble hooked up. That early in the game I just have more pressing things to build and tech, and my workers are too busy improving the land to take time to chop trees for it.

Barracks aren't a huge priority when it comes to dealing with barbs. They don't have promotions either, usually, and on Noble you get a decent combat bonus against them. Just stick your warrior/archer in a jungle, forest or hill where the barb can see him, and the barb will kill himself on you. I do try to have barracks up in my fledgling production city(s) before I start building axemen since they are a top-notch unit for much longer.

Try to keep yourself in the lead on the Power graph in the demographics section, or second if someone who doesn't really threaten you is building a metric ton of troops.

Maybe you aught to try a game where you intentionally build no wonders and found no religions (unless incidental, like needing Philosophy to get to Liberalism). Play as a leader with the Creative trait if you want, so you don't have to worry about borders expanding. You may be surprised at how strong your Civ's fundamentals are, since you spent no time on these extras.

 

[Xirtic88]

I just started another game with Rome on Warlord. I am a couple techs away from Liberalism and am leading in points. I am ranked #1 in power. My two neighbors are pleased but they are both twice my size. I do think my focus on early religions (hinduism) and wonders is hampering my ability to dominate later.
Ok, now I am trying to figure out how to maximize my cities. By that I mean, using my great people properly and also when to assign specialist and what types. Also, both of my neighbors are friends but likely a threat to my future success. Should I attack one of them? I have money still coming in at 90% research so I can afford more troops. I'd like to expand but out of land.

 

[fearuin]

If you're out of land, try by the sea! I've said it a thousand times (well, maybe not that much), but for some reason, a lot of people is really persistant to build a galley and a warrior/scout, and send it the world ahead. The odds are that you will find the half or more of the civs, and, if you stay with no SR on this stage, you may build a good relationship with them. You say that you get extra gold with 90% science. Well, pump it down to 0% for a cuple of turns, and sue those far away civs to attack your neighbours. Even in the worst scenario, in five turns, the core of the army of your neighbour will be going for the first (and false) threat, so you can launch a surprise attack, get a few cities and cripple him for the rest of the game.

You said also that you read some of the strategy articles. Did you read this one? If you didn't (and I bet you didn't, from your words), you'll find some good tips to handle a situation like this.

 

[AnaNg]

If you're out of land then it's not a question of if you should attack a neighbor, but when

Ideally, though I'm not very good at doing this, you could get one neighbor to attack the other neighbor with you. It's sort of risky as they may take cities and become even larger and more powerful and hem you in further. So maybe try to have the smaller one join in a war with you on the larger.

If you can't do this, make sure if they're pleased with each other and not just you, that you watch your back - the one you attack could call in the other as a war ally (who are they, anyway? some are more unpredictable and willing to attack than others).

Great People usage is a long topic and I'm pretty sure there are some articles in the war academy or the articles section on that.

Glad you're seeing some success - religions can be great, but if you're going to found one (meaning to found a religion, not just on the way to something else) you really have to put some work into spreading it. Wonders can really be awesome, but you have to pick and choose when to build them (i.e. if you're spiritual and have marble nearby the Oracle is a no-brainer. If you're not, don't have marble or stone and have unfriendly neighbors around then military techs and production are probably a better options than SH or Ora).

Good luck!

edit: Never mind, fearuin's advice is much better

 

[Gooblah]

Hmmmm. A couple suggestions, according to my experience:
1) If you don't start with Mysticism, skip religion. Why? The odds of you doing so are considerably lessened due to the need for research of another tech. Thus, you can spend your time going for BW, IW, Mining if needed, The Wheel, etc. Remember you can always capture an enemy holy city if need be.
2) For your military, early hookup of Copper or Iron is mandatory. Make an BW, or IW beeline if you dont have copper, a priority. Then research the techs needed to get the resources around your capital.
3) REXing is needed to grab land fast. Go for cities that are good for specialization and/or grab Copper or Iron. Try making a Settler 3rd/4th build.

 

[AnaNg]

1) If you don't start with Mysticism, skip religion. Why? The odds of you doing so are considerably lessened due to the need for research of another tech. Thus, you can spend your time going for BW, IW, Mining if needed, The Wheel, etc. Remember you can always capture an enemy holy city if need be.

I'd actually like some advice on this point. My feeling (from some really poorly chosen starts) is that this doesn't hinge on the myst requirement so much as where you want your focus early game.

What I mean is this: Even if I have Myst (unless I'm pursuing a wonder like Ora and even then) should I adopt a religion? I usually don't even if I found one, until I see who's around me. And if I start with Myst, if I'm not willing to invest the hammers into missionaries to spread it, I ignore that I founded it and often don't switch because it seems to bite me on the tail later if I don't actively spread it.

I'm not saying founding religions is bad, I've had some NICE early games with religious neighbors that I've taken the time to spread my stuff to, but unless you're willing to invest (often at the expense of wonders or military) in that founding - and n ot just the founding but the spreading, it's almost better to stay "No religion" until you are prepared to do so or adopt someone else's.

 

[Xirtic88]

Lots of good advice here... Thanks. Just to update my Roman game, I had Cyrus below me and Saladin to my left. Both were twice my size land-wise. I spent the entire game in 2nd place. I kept both pleased with me and couln't seem to sour their relationship with each other. I kept my military strong but couldn't ever get an advantage over one or the other. I guess my biggest problem here was the size of my civilization. Anyways, in the end, Isabella declared war on me but she had zero success. With about 6 turns left Cyrus sent up his spaceship and that was that. I was bribing everyone else with free techs for the UN vote. Ihad everyone except Isabella pleased or friendly with me but Cyrus got his ship before the next vote. My downfall as I suspected all along was not enough early expansion. Lesson learned.

 

[AnaNg]

Lots of good advice here... Thanks. Just to update my Roman game, I had Cyrus below me and Saladin to my left. Both were twice my size land-wise. I spent the entire game in 2nd place. I kept both pleased with me and couln't seem to sour their relationship with each other. I kept my military strong but couldn't ever get an advantage over one or the other. I guess my biggest problem here was the size of my civilization. Anyways, in the end, Isabella declared war on me but she had zero success. With about 6 turns left Cyrus sent up his spaceship and that was that. I was bribing everyone else with free techs for the UN vote. Ihad everyone except Isabella pleased or friendly with me but Cyrus got his ship before the next vote. My downfall as I suspected all along was not enough early expansion. Lesson learned.

Oh god Cyrus is about the best ally you could hope for, really. Yeah he's a total tech fiend and will give you a run for your money on the space race but!

I realize I'm Monday morning quarterbacking a bit but if you have a save go back to it and try: siccing Cyrus on Izzy. Cyrus' tech research rate will take a hit while he gears up for war (while yours won't , yeah you may have to declare on izzy but it sounds like Cyrus or Sally are buffering you so you declare without any real risk to you from the terrain she'd have to go through). You'll still get nice diplo points for the war whether you kill anyone or not and if Cy already likes you then this is gold - he's your puppy now. If you share a religion with Cyrus he's also really generous with giving away some techs. So grab some techs from him, sic him on izzy to stall his research and production, and tech away in peace to victory!

Saladin's unpredictable as an ally so dont even bother with him past early game but Cyrus, Cyrus OMG! No really, the guy is awesome to have on your side - tech-monger, semi-aggressive mlitarily and largley loyal. Leverage that: beg techs, bribe him to war (to give you some room to tech ahead of him) any game with Cyrus as a pal is an easy game if you know how to work him.

 

[Xirtic88]

I may try that game again from scratch and try to take all of Saladin's land early and then buddy up with Cyrus to the south. We will then own the entire continent while 5 other civs share the other. Only 2 large continents on this map. I will have an onvious advantage having played it already but it will help me learn.

 

[AnaNg]

I may try that game again from scratch and try to take all of Saladin's land early and then buddy up with Cyrus to the south. We will then own the entire continent while 5 other civs share the other. Only 2 large continents on this map. I will have an onvious advantage having played it already but it will help me learn.

Good idea but funny thing about that - everything changes. I've had different religious leaders/factions on a restart, different alliances, different city grabs.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary, but just note that the entire game may be different. Though I still say Cyrus as an ally is NEVER a bad thing provided you can keep him warring enough to offset the techmongering.

 

[Xirtic88]

Good idea but funny thing about that - everything changes. I've had different religious leaders/factions on a restart, different alliances, different city grabs.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary, but just note that the entire game may be different. Though I still say Cyrus as an ally is NEVER a bad thing provided you can keep him warring enough to offset the techmongering.

I played it again and this time I went for expansion right away. I placed my 2nd city on the other side of the continent and then closed the gap to create a line of my territory across the center of the continent. Saladin was expanding fast as well but a couple more cities cut off some prime land just north of me. As soon as I could, I started building axmen for protection and my UU for muscle. Once I had four UU I went for Saladin's throat. YES! It wasn't long before I ended Salasin's life. I filled the remaining land to the North and soon I had the top score and the largest civ. Once my economy kicked in I left the others in the dust and sent up my spaceship in 1950. In additon, my culture caused 2 of Cyrus' cities to flip to me.

Obviously I was helped by knowing the map. But I learned the value of building defenses and attack units early on versus wonders. I was able to found two religions anyways and build many many wonders. In my next game I will try to manage my cities more and try to maximize my economy.

 

[AnaNg]

Hey that's great!

If you want to work on your economy and you have Warlords expansion, try playing along with the lonely hearts game here .

From what I understand, since you're all alone and there's no tech trading early you really have to make sure your economy is set up so you can tech as fast as possible and be ready for when you finally meet the rest of the world.

I'm hoping to learn a lot from playing along and seeing what others are doing.

 

[fearuin]

I'd actually like some advice on this point. My feeling (from some really poorly chosen starts) is that this doesn't hinge on the myst requirement so much as where you want your focus early game.

What I mean is this: Even if I have Myst (unless I'm pursuing a wonder like Ora and even then) should I adopt a religion? I usually don't even if I found one, until I see who's around me. And if I start with Myst, if I'm not willing to invest the hammers into missionaries to spread it, I ignore that I founded it and often don't switch because it seems to bite me on the tail later if I don't actively spread it.

I'm not saying founding religions is bad, I've had some NICE early games with religious neighbors that I've taken the time to spread my stuff to, but unless you're willing to invest (often at the expense of wonders or military) in that founding - and n ot just the founding but the spreading, it's almost better to stay "No religion" until you are prepared to do so or adopt someone else's.

In some past games in Warlords I focused a lot on this, making some conclusions:
1.- If you can found a religion, do it. If you need to sacrifice something to do it, don't. Why? Because you can always conquer the holy city. However, a holy city is always a good thing to have. Think on this example: On my previous game with romans, Pacal founded Judaism, which happened to be the only religion on the continent. It spreaded into my lands, and soon I converted to it. Darius, the other leader in the continent, did the same. Time later, I felt in need of land. I was constrained on a patch of land with 5 cities, so I plotted to get Pacal's holy city, plus another one, both of which were next to my lands. So I bee-lined for Teology, founding Christianism, in the only city I intentionaly left without religion (this consistely happens: if you have all your cities with a religion, and one with no one, 90% of the time, it's founded there). That provided me a holy city. That city was the typical coastal city with seafood, good-for-nothing, in marginal lands. But, after expanding christianism to the rest of my cities, and after building all comerce improvents, it became a consistent trade city, giving me the gold enough to fund my campaign on Mayan America. With this example you see that a holy city, even if you don't go for a religious strategy, does more good than harm.

2.- In any game with continents, say, any map except Pangea; if you have advantage in tech and are able to be the first with Optics, turn off your SR for a while. So, when you find new civs, they won't be prejudicied with your religion, and will agree to open borders. From this, you can build a strong relationship. In little time, liberalism will come, so you'll turn to FR anyway (well, not anyway, but 75% of the times, probably). That will lead you to an advantage in tech you ca use in many ways: conquer you neighbours, get a an easy lead to the tech race, or grab WW for a cultural or historic victory.

3.- If more than one religion is founded on your continent, you may want to choose none, so you can have good relationship with everybody, and take advantage this way. Instigate religious wars between your neighbours, and you'll get a huge advantage easily.

Well, what a long OFF-TOPIC post. Please forgive me, and I expect it was useful.

 

[slobberinbear]

To the OP:

You need to strike a balance between sealing off your "borders" from Izzy and developing your military.

It is easy to forget that your second and third cities have responsibilities to the Empire ... i.e., it is easy to let your Capitol produce everything. Don't do that. For instance, while one city is building settlers, another should be making military units while the third is making buildings.

Remember that the AI is evaluating your power rating and number of units in border cities. Your troops are as much of a deterrent as they are there for fighting.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Isabella is always the enemy.

Even if you're her religion, she'll backstab you as soon as look at your gold mines.

 

[xanadux]

Haven't read all the posts, but in first game, if you have bronze in capital's fat cross, I can think of only 2 reasons you have problems with barbarians ...

1. you waited too long to get bronze working
2. you had bronze working, but didn't build some axemen.

If you are having trouble on Noble, my advice is ignore religion, get BW first, chop another worker and a settler (and a warrior in there if necessary), get your second city out to claim copper, build axemen. If no copper is within reach, go for animal husbandry and hook up horses with second city for chariots. If also no horses, get IW for Iron. If also no iron nearby, (will rarely happen, but does sometimes, then get archery. At noble you have time for all of this.

As far as basic early game strategy goes, you have 2 goals ... find a resource for a good early game military unit, (copper, horses, iron), and get production. Unless you have no forests, and no food, BW solves early game production, and usually allows a good early game military unit.

If you have trouble on Noble, you should skip religions and skip wonders, and concentrate on production and finding a military strategic resource. This is the first goal. The second goal is getting a robust economy. If you have plenty of food available, and are not financial, this means getting writing, building libraries, and running scientists. If financial, it usually means getting pottery and building some cottages along a river.

To reiterate:

1. Get production (BW)
2. Quickly expand and get 1-3 more cities
3. Get the economy going to fund research

 

[Game-God]

Good idea but funny thing about that - everything changes. I've had different religious leaders/factions on a restart, different alliances, different city grabs.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary, but just note that the entire game may be different. Though I still say Cyrus as an ally is NEVER a bad thing provided you can keep him warring enough to offset the techmongering.

In order to get that kind of fresh restart you'd have to have selected the option of "New random seed on reload" or the game just will regen you to a new place on the same map. (notice how your screen goes black when you regen) it is showing you the place you had been before the regen.

Great way to cheat if you're learning...

 

[AnaNg]

No, I'm not talking about regenning the map, my understanding was that he was going to restart from a previous save. And just reloading a save I've had everything completely change. It was pretty neat actually as it makes you extremely aware of how many factors you need to be thinking about.

For instance, I play a game and at, say, 1000 BC: Saladin founded Buddhism, Monte founded Hinduism and is palsy-walsy with Shaka but of course they don't like Saladin, Mansu is Jewish and everyone hates him. What I'm saying is that if you had a save at 4000BC and played that same game again without regenerating the map (with or without seed option) it could easily be Monte founding Buddhism with he, Mansu and Shaka all buddhist pals hating Saladin who is now the founder if Hinduism.