Bannor before the Fall

[KillerClowns]

I got to wondering... what where the Bannor like before Bhall's fall, when they still worshipped her? I can't imagine the worshippers of a fire god, even a benevolent one, being like the Bannor from the Age of Rebirth. Their dedication to justice, from what I gather about the Age of Magic and Bhall before her fall, was present even then. But I can't imagine them being as dedicated to law and order, since their goddess was one of change. Any thoughts?

 

[Kael]

I got to wondering... what where the Bannor like before Bhall's fall, when they still worshipped her? I can't imagine the worshippers of a fire god, even a benevolent one, being like the Bannor from the Age of Rebirth. Their dedication to justice, from what I gather about the Age of Magic and Bhall before her fall, was present even then. But I can't imagine them being as dedicated to law and order, since their goddess was one of change. Any thoughts?

They were extremly anti-magic. In that time most of the mages were evil, certainly the most powerful ones, and the path to magic was easier for those willing to serve demons and evil gods. The bannor had little tolerance for those that dabbled in the occult, and didn't trust the stories of "good magic" (believing it just another path that would always lead to darker powers). Many people were purged by fire and they were the greatest enemy of the evil archmages that survived kylorins rebellion.

Although the atmosphere would be similiar to the salem during the witch trials the main difference is that 95% of the time the bannor were right. Everything the people during the salem witch trials believed to be true was true during the age of rebirth, and though the bannor are ever possessed of over-zealousness, the amount of innocents burnt in village squares was moderatly low.

 

[Corlis]

Everything the people during the salem witch trials believed to be true was true during the age of rebirth, and though the bannor are ever possessed of over-zealousness, the amount of innocents burnt in village squares was moderatly low.

You can't make an omlette without incinerating a few eggs with holy purifying fire...

 

[smjjames]

They seem pretty accepting of magic now.

 

[Darksaber1]

They seem pretty accepting of magic now.

Yes, but know they've been through the fires of hell, and have diffrent mission
in life, and using magic is an easy way to slay those chaotic forces of evil.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I've never seen anything lore-wise that implied that they are actually any more accepting of magic now, even f you can use it in game.

I've actually been considering making archmages unavailable to good players, given the description of what an Archmage is taken from Kael's D&D campaigns. It said that an archmage had to be very utilitarian, not letting ethical concerns get in the way of their goals. Sounds like a Neutral & Evil-only unit to me.

 

[avalonnn]

I've never seen anything lore-wise that implied that they are actually any more accepting of magic now, even f you can use it in game.

I've actually been considering making archmages unavailable to good players, given the description of what an Archmage is taken from Kael's D&D campaigns. It said that an archmage had to be very utilitarian, not letting ethical concerns get in the way of their goals. Sounds like a Neutral & Evil-only unit to me.

Seems to me that it's possible to use magic for good -- but you could ban some schools of magic to good players (still need to let them build the nodes to win a Mastery victory).

BTW -- OT -- could we have a "world peace" victory for good players that triggers if every remaining player has a defensive pact with every other remaining player? This could happen, for example, if only the Elohim, Luichirp, and Malakim remained.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I didn't say you couldn't use magic for good. There is no reason why there couldn't be mages, but the description that an archmage gave to Kael Colbane about what an archmage is made it sound like they couldn't be good-although by no means necessarily evil. An archmage is not just a powerful mage, it is one who won't let anything break his resolve to accomplish his goals, including ethics. If an archmage needs a special artifact to vanquish a demon, he will not hesitate to murder the goodly priests guarding it if they won't give it up peacefully. He described this as "serving the greater good," of course, but I don't consider this good. It is more neutral.


If I do decide to do this, I'll probably give Good civs some other bonus to compensate. I'd probably actually tie to to Broader Alignment requirements, so only the really good civs have this weakness.





I'd be fine with such a victory condition, but I'd probably just make it a diplomatic victory that requires all civs be on the Overcouncil. The defensive pact resolution could be a prereq for this resolution too.

 

[MacGyverInSpace]

I can't imagine the worshippers of a fire god, even a benevolent one, being like the Bannor from the Age of Rebirth.

I sort of can.

Hallowed are the orcsi.

 

[smjjames]

Depends on which Stargate race you're talking about.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think its pretty obvious that he was talking about the Ori. The Order's high priests are even called Priors, after all.

You have to remember that before Bhall's fall the world was filled with evil sorcerers. Patria had become extremely corrupt, so the change had to be a violent overthrow of the evil world order. The Crusade had already begun.

 

[smjjames]

Since I don't watch Stargate, I wouldn't have known. Although the pics for the Ori did look like they were surrounded by fire or something, but I guess I didn't catch on.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They aren't surrounded by Fire, they are the Fire. Well, it isn't literally fire, but that is how these energy being from another plane manifest themselves. The man you see in the fire isn't an Ori, but the Head of The Priors, their genetically enhanced human priests.

 

[loocas]

They may still dislike magic, and it's just the influence of the Order that's responsible for magic use in their empire.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What magic use if the Order responible for? Divine spells sure, but that doesn't count. They have always used divine magic (once mostly from Bhall), it is sorcery they distrust.

 

[wilboman]

I'm fairly sure the Bannor would have very few sorcerors in their ranks. Not only does it not really suit religious zealots, I doubt they would be very good at seeking out and training youngsters with magical potential - there's no system in place. In fact, quite a few of the Good civs seem more inclined to go with Divine rather than Sorcery.

 

[loocas]

For an example of the Order using magic selfishly, there's Sheelba's entry. Pillar of Fire too. It's divine, but then the line between sorcery and divine must be pretty blurry because there isn't much difference in the way the Order's using Pillar of Fire and any other destructive spell. They could have adopted some of Bhall's magic, and using the excuse that it's divine, not evil sorcery, that it's all right for them to use. Rage is also attributed to the Order.

 

[Verily]

I didn't say you couldn't use magic for good. There is no reason why there couldn't be mages, but the description that an archmage gave to Kael Colbane about what an archmage is made it sound like they couldn't be good-although by no means necessarily evil. An archmage is not just a powerful mage, it is one who won't let anything break his resolve to accomplish his goals, including ethics. If an archmage needs a special artifact to vanquish a demon, he will not hesitate to murder the goodly priests guarding it if they won't give it up peacefully. He described this as "serving the greater good," of course, but I don't consider this good. It is more neutral.

But... that sounds a lot like Basium, who I imagine doesn't get along very well with the Elohim just as an Archmage might have difficulty with them. I think you're confusing good and Good.

The one exception I would make is, as I mentioned, that the Elohim really wouldn't buy into the doctrine of ends justifying the means whereas the other Good civs would. Certainly the Bannor think the ends justify the means. The Malakim very likely think so as well, and Cardith Lorda strikes me as having a bit of a "malevolent" pragmatic side that would see things that way. Arendel's Ljosalfar would do anything to save the forests from evil. I can't come up with a good explanation for the Luchuirp, but they don't have that same "true goodness" of the Elohim. In that sense, maybe only the Elohim should not be able to create Archmages. Unfortunately, that makes a weak civ even weaker.

 

[wilboman]

The Luichurp do not, after all, have to get personally involved in anything dirty that furthers the cause of good - they just send their golems. As such, I daresay there quite the possibility that they are at least as pragmatic as the Bannor - there's a low threshhold when you don't have to do it yourself.

 

[Milosrdenstvi]

True that the Elohim are the only real pacifists, but I doubt Cardith and Varn Gosam see eye to eye with the Bannor too too often.