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Barb cities are poorly defended compared to BtS

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Doug Piranha, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. Doug Piranha

    Doug Piranha Warlord

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    I was a Monarch level player in BtS, and I'm used to barb cities being defended by 3-4 archers by the time I was ready to attack them. In several Emperor-level games of FfH, I've found barb cities mostly defended by a couple warriors, possibly with a goblin - pretty easy pickings if I'm willing to sacrifice a few of my own warriors to take the city. I don't think I've ever seen a barb archer defending a city, although the barbs had axemen defending in one game. Barb cities are so easy to take that building settlers seems kind of inefficient on a thinly-populated map (excuse me, I just had a Master of Magic flashback).

    AI cities are usually well-stuffed with archers, but the barb logic doesn't put archers in cities. Thoughts?
     
  2. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    Play a few more games in FFH? ;)
    Trust me, Barbs are a complete pain in this game early on. And if the the city with the Barbarian Dragon appears near you....:eek:..Good luck.
     
  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    While FFH barbarians that wander on the map are rather powerful, the defense of their cities is often sub-par. (Well, if that city doesn't belong to Acheron, whom I disable anyway). I've often seen them being empty.
     
  4. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    I often see them as one less settler :). If there is an Ogre Warchief, 3 Ogres, a dragon, and 2 stoneskin Ogres, than suddenly your plans to colonize a small continent that no one had yet settled suddenly gets a large dent
     
  5. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    with the introduction of goblin archers many barbarian cities are well-defended nowadays. and if not: what's wrong with it? AIs tend to go for these cities, so can you.

    personally i see most barbs more like free xp, but i know a lot of people that get overrun by them all the time :)
     
  6. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    The barbarian cities at Deity level are often poorly defended too; it seems to me after dozens of games. They are often easy pickings. This is not the same as saying the raging barbarians all over the place are easy; that's another issue altogether. If I find a barbarian city and if I want it, I can usually take it relatively easy; depends on whether the barbs' fellows are raging nearby. Most of the cities I encounter have 2-3 units at most (save for Acheron the Dragon) usually warriors, occasionally axemen, rarely archers. All-in-all though, barbarians in FFH2 are generally much harder to deal with than in BTS except for their cities: in my experience, the barbarians cities are generally poorly defended. If they're that way on Deity, they probably are even less well defended at the other levels.
     
  7. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    All barb cities start with 3 warriors on the 2 highest levels and less on everything below that. They start with a worker build, which takes a long time. If that finishes they'll build some extra defense.

    If a barb city materializes near a goblin fort, the scorpion archers guarding that fort will break off, head for the city, and hole up there. (there's a very loose definition of "near" here - those archers have some killer senses.) I think that any archers spawned from the forts also find a city to wander off to and guard, but I'm not as sure about that.
     
  8. SwordofStriker

    SwordofStriker Prince

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    I'll trade you your barb cities for the ones in my current game...

    There is one barb city on a far off continent that I intended to capture so I had a foothold there. I figured one lone but highly promoted warrior would do the trick since he was practically a hero in his own right. No dice.

    I find that when barb cities are few and far between they all hide away inside them. This particular city had about seven frostling archers and a few axemen on top of that. Needless to say, my warrior moved on to greener pastures.

    Typically though you are right, barb cities are not as well-defended unless it's the dragon's hoard, but I think with fewer room for brabs as the game goes on they tend to consolidate their forces.
     
  9. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    You have to consider the tradeoff between having highly defended barb cities and low defended ones. With high defense, their offense lacks. In FFH, the main point of the barbs is to raid your countryside, kill your stuff, and make life generally harder.

    Besides, if all the barbs did was hole up in their cities, why not just add in another civilization instead?
     
  10. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    For me, it's just an observation that the barbarian cities aren't too well-protected usually, not an argument for them to stay at home. I actually think it's more fun when they come out to play; and the occasional barb city captured a good way to pick up a poorly placed addition to our nation's Blood Bowl sports franchises.
     
  11. Ribusprissin

    Ribusprissin Warlord

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    Blood Bowl is awesome.
     
  12. Doug Piranha

    Doug Piranha Warlord

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    My impression in BtS was that somewhere around Prince difficulty the free barbarian city defenders change from warriors to archers. If these are free units, marked for city defense, they wouldn't have any effect on the number of wandering barbs, and they'd keep the barb cities from being nearly free cities to add to my empire.

    In Master of Magic, it was bad strategy to build settlers: you were better off building military units which could go out and capture other people's cities and pop goodies. In one of my games of FfH, I had about five out of my first ten cities built for me by the barbs. It just seems to me the game is a little out of balance right now in the cost for a new city: either build a settler (120 hammers), or four warriors (100 hammers, and some of them will gain experience beating the city defenders), and I think this could be fixed just by upgrading the city defenders from warriors to archers.
     
  13. Divankin

    Divankin Chieftain

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    Yeah, it would be better to protect Barb cities by archer instead of axemans
     
  14. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    I think the advantage gained by capturing a barbarian city is offset somewhat by the fact that they usually pop up in terrible positions. There is an immediate advantage in that you've got a city without building a settler, but in the long run you have to deal with inferior positioning.

    However, I do agree that barbarian cities could stand to be better defended. They usually start with 2 defenders, and I've seen both of the defenders leave after a scout moves into the city - which makes it really easy to capture. Goblin Forts are defended better than barbarian cities, which doesn't seem right. I think that they should start with 3 defenders, and like Goblin Forts the AI should never move a unit out of the city it if would result in less than 3 defenders remaining.

    As for changing the defenders from warriors to archers, I think the type of defender is dictated by what techs the barbarian has. Eventually barbarian cities are defended by archers.
     
  15. shapecharge

    shapecharge Chieftain

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    In my current game I have Barb cities with Longbow men, ogers, and even national units such as beserkers and crossbowmen. So if they stick around long enough they will get the better defenders since I tend to play huge maps with marathon speed this happens quite a bit depending on the type of map. Anthor thing I have noticed is that the AI playing Clan of Embers usually cast its world spell right away this often leaves early barb cities quite exposed and vulnerable.
    Also for the first time I got barbs that were not "orcs", but human champions it was a small city on the northern fringe of ice but I was quite surprised to see non-orc barbs. Has enyone else ever had this?

    If you like Barbs and find them fun even in late game (which I do) play larger maps at slower speeds the draw back of course is the time between turns after about turn 1000. Two other interesting game choices for Barb fun is
    1. with barbarian world and raging barbs on choose the no settlers option, this makes barb cities the only other ones in game and city capturing the only way to expand.

    2. Try the full of resources map script it has options for barb cities such as having them start with walls or archey ranges, choosing thier intial defender such as long bowmen and even minotars and giving the defending barb some starting experince these options can make those barb cities harder to capture at the begining just be aware of the advantage you will be giving clan of embers early on with thier world spell when doing this.
     

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