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Barbarian Camp Diversity

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by DanQuayle, Jun 7, 2020.

  1. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
    419
    Suggestion: Add different classes of Barbarians in the camps (each with different behaviors)

    When dealing with barbarian camps, there are three scenarios
    1. Preventively destroy the barbarian camp with 1 lone warrior
    2. Get screwed by a sneaky barbarian scout and face a lot of barbarians
    3. A camp left alone for some time, but that didn't scout a city, will slowly spawn units

    Goals:
    Increase diversity of early game
    Make Scenario 1 (which is the most frequent one) a bit more challenging

    Spearman (current situation)
    • Behavior: Fortified, wanders out after units against which it has a positive combat strenght differential (excluding scouts)
    • Counter: 1 Warrior / 1 Slinger(bait) + 1 Scout(clearer)
    • Spawns: Warrior, Slinger
    Warrior (new)
    • Behavior: Fortified, does not wander out of camp, will attack adjacent units against which it has a positive combat strenght differential (excluding scouts)
    • Counter: 1 Archer (Hardcounter if 2 tiles away) / 2 Slingers in open terrain / 1 Slinger + 1 Warrior / 3 Slingers in rough terrain
    • Spawns: Spearman, Slinger
    Archer (new)
    • Behavior: Fortified, does not wander out of camp, but shoots to land first shot
    • Counter: 1 tank + 1 damage dealer / 1 Heavy Chariot
    • Spawns: Heavy Chariot, Warrior
    Heavy Chariot (new)
    • Behavior: Fortified, does not wander out of camp, will attack adjacent units against which it has a positive combat strenght differential (excluding scouts)
    • Counter: 1 Spearman
    • Spawns: Spearman, Slinger

    Barbarian Camp with access to Horses
    Barbarian Horseman (slight change to current situation)
    • Behavior: Fortified, goes out after units against which it has a positive combat strenght differential (excluding scouts) only if in LOS and can land first attack
    • Counter: 1 Spearman / 1 tank + 1 clearer (note: tank may die)
    • Spawns: Barbarian Horsemen, Horse Archers

    I haven't done every "mean simulation" for all scenarios yet, but this makes dealing with barbarian camps so much more interesting, diverse and complex in the early game!
    The more difficult camps like the Heavy Chariot and Archer ones could start to spawn after a smart delay in the game.
    I thought about making the barbarian camps spawning the "counter to their counters", but I think that would be too much!

    Any suggestion welcomed!
     
  2. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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  3. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
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    That mod turns barbarian aggressiveness to 11
    Lookouts (Scouts) attacking units before scouting cities
    Lookouts respawning shortly after being killed
    Closer and more frequent barbarian camps
    Completely different unit tree for barbarians
    etc.

    Basically, it is a drastic change to the early game that forces you to build many warriors early on. There is no "peaceful" / "greedy" opening possible under that mod and thus limits the diversity of viable openings for the early game.
    Ironically, camps are nearly as easy to clear with 1 lone warrior, because they are Spearmen. The only added difficulty is that they respawn Lookouts (Scouts) faster and that they attack on sight. Thus, this mod doesn't really address the main aim of my proposal which is to make my outlined Scenario 1 more difficult.

    My proposal is more of a tweak than a complete overhaul like this mod. I will later post in this thread some "combat simulations" that illustrate my point.

    The mod does however 'feel' better than the base game in some way and I will play test it some more. Thanks for posting it.
     
  4. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
    Messages:
    419
    The following are simulations with expected damage (there may be worse or better outcomes)

    Fortified Barbarian Spearman (+9) in hills attacked by 1 Warrior (+0) (0xp) in surrounding open terrain (with Discipline)


    1. Warrior attacks Barbarian Spearman
    Warrior: 35 vs 34: 31dmg (28dmg) [Barbarian Spearman: 69 health, Warrior: 72 health (5xp)]

    2. Warrior attacks Barbarian Spearman
    Warrior: 32 vs 31: 31dmg (28dmg) [Barbarian Spearman: 38 health, Warrior: 44 health (10xp)]

    3. Warrior attacks Barbarian Spearman
    Warrior: 29 vs 28: 31dmg (28dmg) [Barbarian Spearman: 7 health, Warrior: 16 health (15xp)]

    4. Warrior gets the Battlecry promotion
    [Barbarian Spearman: 7 health, Warrior: 66 health (15xp)]

    5. Warrior attacks Barbarian Spearman
    Warrior: 39 vs 25: 52dmg (17dmg) [Barbarian Spearman: dead, Warrior: 49 health (16xp)]


    Fortified Barbarian Warrior (+9) in hills attacked by 1 Warrior (+0) (0xp) in surrounding open terrain (with Discipline)

    1. Warrior attacks Barbarian Warrior
    Warrior: 25 vs 29: 25dmg (35dmg) [Barbarian Warrior: 75 health, Warrior: 65 health (4xp)]

    2. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Spearman: 75 health, Warrior: 75 health (4xp)]

    3. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Spearman: 75 health, Warrior: 85 health (4xp)]

    4. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Spearman: 75 health, Warrior: 95 health (4xp)]

    5. Warrior attacks Barbarian Warrior
    Warrior: 25 vs 27: 27dmg (32dmg) [Barbarian Warrior: 48 health, Warrior: 63 health (8xp)]

    6. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Spearman: 48 health, Warrior: 73 health (8xp)]

    7. Warrior attacks Barbarian Warrior
    Warrior: 22 vs 24: 27dmg (32dmg) [Barbarian Warrior: 21 health, Warrior: 41 health (12xp)]

    8. Warrior attacks Barbarian Warrior
    Warrior: 19 vs 21: 27dmg (32dmg) [Barbarian Warrior: dead, Warrior: 9 health (15xp)]


    Analysis
    As you can see it is a bit less efficient (but not dramatically so) to clear a Barbarian Camp consisting of a fortified Barbarian Warrior rather than a fortified Barbarian Spearman. (+3T)
    If you consider time to "redeployment", it would take in the first scenario +5T to heal back to 99 health for a total of 10T and in the second scenario, it would take 1 turn to promote +4 other turns to heal (also +5T) for a total 13T which is also a differential of +3T.
     
  5. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Prince

    Joined:
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    Male
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro, K11 (Kwanza)
    I really like this MOD, Can I do a very NOOB question?
    How I install a MOD?:crazyeye:
    I'm playing CIV 6 by Epic Games, I still playing Vanila, I'm waiting some promotion to buy Gathering Storms:lol:.

    ABOUT BARBARIAN!
    I really enjoy controversial stuffs, so I would ask for Unique Units for Barbarians.
    I would like to see Unique Units of Civs who isn't in the game appearings as Barbarian Units.
    For example, if I set a game without Japan, it may have Samurai Barbarians (if it in World Map, this Samurai Barbarians should spot next to Japan).

    Also, Barbarians can have Unique Units from all eras, just think a Barbarian with a Toyota car:
     
  6. Revanchist

    Revanchist Warlord

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    It would be cool to see barbarians advancing throughout the ages. They could start as animals like lions or bears and slowly change form as you progress. Perhaps ancient would be animals, classical and medieval would be barbarians, renaissance and industrial would be pirates/raiders that spawn on the coast/small islands, and lastly some form of partisan or terrorist organization for later eras that can pose as a big threat to unstable areas
     
  7. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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  8. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2015
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    Fortified Barbarian Archer (+9) in hills attacked by 1 Warrior (+0) (0xp) in surrounding open terrain (with Discipline)

    1a Warrior moves adjacent to camp

    1b Barbarian Archer attacks Warrior
    Barbarian Archer: 25 vs 25: 30dmg (0dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 100 health, Warrior: 70 health (3xp)]

    2a Warrior attacks Barbarian Archer
    Warrior: 22 vs 18: 35dmg (25dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 45 health (7xp)]

    2b Barbarian Archer attacks Warrior
    Barbarian Archer: 22 vs 20: 32dmg (0dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 13 health (10xp)]

    3. Warrior retreats two tiles out

    4. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 23 health (10xp)]

    5. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 33 health (10xp)]

    6. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 43 health (10xp)]

    7. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 53 health (10xp)]

    8. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 63 health (10xp)]

    9. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 73 health (10xp)]

    10. Warrior heals for 1 turn
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 83 health (10xp)]

    11a Warrior moves adjacent to camp
    [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 83 health (10xp)]

    11b Barbarian Archer attacks Warrior
    Barbarian Archer: 22 vs 23: 28dmg (0dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 65 health, Warrior: 55 health (13xp)]

    12a Warrior attacks Barbarian Archer
    Warrior: 21 vs 15: 38dmg (23dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 27 health, Warrior: 32 health (15xp)]

    12b Barbarian Archer attacks Warrior
    Barbarian Archer: 18 vs 18: 30dmg (0dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 27 health, Warrior: 2 health (15xp)]

    13a Warrior gets the Tortoise promotion
    [Barbarian Archer: 27 health, Warrior: 52 health (15xp)]

    13b Barbarian Archer attacks Warrior
    Barbarian Archer: 18 vs 30: 18dmg (0dmg) [Barbarian Archer: 27 health, Warrior: 34 health (16xp)]

    14. Warrior attacks Barbarian Archer
    Warrior: 18 vs 11: 39dmg (22dmg) [Barbarian Archer: dead, Warrior: 12 health (17xp)]

    Analysis
    As you can see, it takes much longer with a lone warrior to clear a Barbarian Camp with an Archer in it (that attacks) than a Barbarian Camp with a fortified Spearman in it. (It takes 9 more turns).
    If you consider time to "redeployment", it would take in this scenario +9 turns to heal back to 100 health for a total of 23 turns which is 13 turns more than the base scenario which took 10 turns.
    It will always theoretically be possible to take down a barbarian camp with a warrior (as long as you cannot die in 2-3 attacks), because you can heal your unit, but barbarians cannot.
    However, the longer it takes to clear a camp, the more likely it is that it will start to spawn another unit (ie you go from the easy scenario 1 to scenario 3). If that happened, you would have no choice but to retreat with your lone warrior (if you do not want to lose that unit).
    I estimates that it would be "balanced" to start to spawn that type of camp after 20-25 turns at standard speed.
     

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