Barbarian Groups

[Sarisin]

I'd just like to hear what other players think of the new barb groups that you get now in FF. Personally, I am finding the raging barb games WITHOUT barbarian world selected a much great challenge now.

I think the Frostling Wolf Riders, Archers, etc. are getting moved back with patch f, but with e they were real trouble. I was not having trouble defending my cities, but building and defending improvements was near impossible.

Getting a group of 6 Goblins wasn't too bad, but when you got a group of 6 Warriors (often), you need at least 6 defenders per city to defend against their pillaging. 6 Orc Wolf Riders are another nuisance.

Finally, the Lizardman groups I'm getting are really a pain. They are not so stupid to attack my cities and they cannot pillage. However, they seem to just hang around moving from city to city and not attacking, but preventing you from building/re-building improvements. Early in the game, and on certain terrain, they are hard to kill too.

I have noticed that there seem to be periods where you might have 3-4 groups in your territory, while there are long stretches of nothing. Also, I see the AI is building many defenders in their cities now rather than the 1-2 you used to see and, as a result, not many AI civs are getting wiped out - but, they also have no improvements it seems.

Still no barbs spawning on ruins, barrows, etc. so the early game before the barb groups arrive can be fairly easy. But, when the groups start showing up, look out.

Anyway, I find the barbs in FF a much greater challenge than in FFH right now at the raging barb setting.

 

[Vehem]

Anyway, I find the barbs in FF a much greater challenge than in FFH right now at the raging barb setting.

Good - challenge is what we're aiming for, though things like the massed Frostling Wolfriders was less "challenge" and more "problem" - hence them being shifted.

 

[odalrick]

I like the change too. They have become a noticeable challenge.

After the initial adaptation to the new menace, most of the time I wipe the band out without problem. Occasionally they manage to do some real damage and require more focused intervention.

It also makes cavalry more important. I the past I've usually just used an infantry military, since that's been enough. But now a small stack of Mobility II cavalry is needed to replace a half dozen stacks of slow defenders.

My biggest problem is that they spawn right next to my borders, so sometimes there is no time react before they grab a worker or something. I'd say this is mostly a matter of training, though. I need to see unowned territory as dangerous, rather than the old fogged territory. It also makes culture more valuable.

 

[Sarisin]

My biggest problem is that they spawn right next to my borders, so sometimes there is no time react before they grab a worker or something. I'd say this is mostly a matter of training, though. I need to see unowned territory as dangerous, rather than the old fogged territory. It also makes culture more valuable.

This is an excellent point that I failed to mention. It is not so problematic if a group of Warriors, Goblins, or even Lizardmen spawn in that tile right next to your border. However, if you get the group of 6 Wolf Riders (the Frostling Riders were worse, but in the new patch I think they will come later), you don't have much of a chance to react.

As you said, you need to get your cities culturally expanded so you have at least that extra one-tile buffer. Then, it is good to have roads throughout your civ, so your mobile SWAT team of defenders can move quickly to deal with the group that spawned and moved into your borders in one turn.

I think this is one time where Nox Noctis helps too as you can station a few defenders outside your cities close to the borders, and theoretically anyway, the invading groups would not know they are there.

One other thing I have noticed is even a bit of a coordinated attack by the groups. One might hang around waiting for a second group to show up. However, the Riders seem to attack/pillage immediately.

 

[odalrick]

There is one more thing that bothers me, that I failed to mention.

As I understand it, barbarians spawn partially based on the number of barbarians. As such it sometimes seems like just when you pick off a group, another instantly spawns to replace it. So it's better to leave harmless groups alone, rather than pick them off and face a new foe.

On the other hand that provides buckets of experience and gold.

 

[Tarquelne]

I don't like seeing stacks of more than say, 3 Hill Giants.

A suspension of disbelief issue, not game balance. Lone giants are fun, a few giants are fun, more Giants than that and I start looking around the desert for double-value Cow tiles.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't like seeing stacks of more than say, 3 Hill Giants.

A suspension of disbelief issue, not game balance. Lone giants are fun, a few giants are fun, more Giants than that and I start looking around the desert for double-value Cow tiles.

Agreed. In general I LOVE the barbarian stacks, seem much more realistic and much more deadly... But a few units simply should not be stacked.

 

[Seven05]

I like the effect the have on overall empire growth. It's frightening to send out settlers when there are roving bands of them out there and they make quick work of scouts and even hunters in many cases. In fact, I love that aspect so much I push back the turn limit for the barb cities so I can enjoy it even more. Something about the wild, uninhabited land that just has a good feel to it for me.

 

[Sarisin]

I don't like seeing stacks of more than say, 3 Hill Giants.

A suspension of disbelief issue, not game balance. Lone giants are fun, a few giants are fun, more Giants than that and I start looking around the desert for double-value Cow tiles.

I've never seen a stack of more than 3 Hill Giants, however, I did have TWO stacks of 3 show up.

Honestly, my last game I got pretty far along, and the most powerful units I saw in a stack were those Hill Giants. I never saw axemen, lizardman rangers, lizard assassins, champions, ogres, etc.

I was producing Tier IV units and thinking I might have the unpleasant surprise of seeing 4 barb Lizard Beastmasters (they have a national unit limit too, right?) show up, but not even Tier III units appeared.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I really like the stacking of barbs. I don't mind stacks of hill giants. I am always prepared for the animals and barbarians being tough. Having a more challeging game is why I play FF. I get lots of other cool features as well, though . I really like this modmod.

 

[Sephi]

Those barbarian groups are really cool. It would be nice if they were a bit smarter, though. I usually put some defenders on a wooded hill and those barbarian will attack them even if they have no chance to succeed.

 

[Sarisin]

Those barbarian groups are really cool. It would be nice if they were a bit smarter, though. I usually put some defenders on a wooded hill and those barbarian will attack them even if they have no chance to succeed.

I think the barbs are much more aggressive now. You can really lead them around on a wild goose chase too as they will keep following you allover the map once they spot you.

Speaking of Hill Giants, look at this one that lumbered into my territory. You don't often see many non-hero barb units with promotions like this!

 

[Brokenbone]

I think I like the stacks coming in, can be a challenge to scramble an appropriate amount of defenders. The barbs though do represent a lot of free XP, especially stacks of questionable firepower like 6 goblins. I never much mind recon stacks (lizardmen included) tromping through my lands since they aren't going to pillage anything anyway.

That said, I think I must've misread a changelog or just not noticed, but they do seem to spawn within plain view, so long as it's outside your borders. That is, sitting a sentry someplace as a "fog buster" , example, someone with Sentry promotion sitting on top of an ancient tower tile, well, tough luck, fogbusting's relevance seems either to have been reduced or removed (maybe it prevents some barbs from spawning, can't say). It has been sort of humorous to have a sentry stand in place, then *POP* there's a bear and a lair right next to him... or 4 lizardmen, or whatever.

Forewarned is forearmed though I suppose. Having a couple of rapid response forces sitting in strategic places ends up making great sense.

 

[xienwolf]

I've never seen a stack of more than 3 Hill Giants, however, I did have TWO stacks of 3 show up.

Honestly, my last game I got pretty far along, and the most powerful units I saw in a stack were those Hill Giants. I never saw axemen, lizardman rangers, lizard assassins, champions, ogres, etc.

I was producing Tier IV units and thinking I might have the unpleasant surprise of seeing 4 barb Lizard Beastmasters (they have a national unit limit too, right?) show up, but not even Tier III units appeared.

Orcs spawn completely at random, no preference toward stronger units (to maintain the "Horde" mentality/feel). They will EVENTUALLY gain higher tech units, but are always quite happy to pop out warriors and goblins.

Animals can spawn all their units from turn 1, what they pop never changes unless a required terrain/feature is introduced/removed in the world.

Demons however, will heavily favor spawning the strongest units available to them, and will tend to keep up pretty well with whoever the tech leader is, unless the AC is low and Tech Leader is Good.

Those barbarian groups are really cool. It would be nice if they were a bit smarter, though. I usually put some defenders on a wooded hill and those barbarian will attack them even if they have no chance to succeed.

Barbarians will happily attack anything with better than 20% odds of victory. So they don't quite have NO chance, just a very marginal one.

I think the barbs are much more aggressive now. You can really lead them around on a wild goose chase too as they will keep following you allover the map once they spot you.

Speaking of Hill Giants, look at this one that lumbered into my territory. You don't often see many non-hero barb units with promotions like this!

I really have to teach them not to purchase March...

I think I like the stacks coming in, can be a challenge to scramble an appropriate amount of defenders. The barbs though do represent a lot of free XP, especially stacks of questionable firepower like 6 goblins. I never much mind recon stacks (lizardmen included) tromping through my lands since they aren't going to pillage anything anyway.

That said, I think I must've misread a changelog or just not noticed, but they do seem to spawn within plain view, so long as it's outside your borders. That is, sitting a sentry someplace as a "fog buster" , example, someone with Sentry promotion sitting on top of an ancient tower tile, well, tough luck, fogbusting's relevance seems either to have been reduced or removed (maybe it prevents some barbs from spawning, can't say). It has been sort of humorous to have a sentry stand in place, then *POP* there's a bear and a lair right next to him... or 4 lizardmen, or whatever.

Forewarned is forearmed though I suppose. Having a couple of rapid response forces sitting in strategic places ends up making great sense.

Slight misread then, the changelog for 0.50 had clearly stated that Fogbusting is now useless. Partially as an unfortunate side-effect of allowing units to spawn in allied lands, partially because when seeing if that side-effect was intollerable it turned out to be fun (and frequently funny).

 

[Vehem]

Slight misread then, the changelog for 0.50 had clearly stated that Fogbusting is now useless. Partially as an unfortunate side-effect of allowing units to spawn in allied lands, partially because when seeing if that side-effect was intollerable it turned out to be fun (and frequently funny).

And most importantly, it means that areas of the world will stay wild, until they're properly colonized (culture has spread to them). A couple of scouts on sentry towers used to "civilize" massive areas of land, now it takes a little more effort...

"Fog buster" scouts are still useful, but only in so much as they let you see the enemy coming and prepare.

 

[Sephi]

Barbarians will happily attack anything with better than 20% odds of victory. So they don't quite have NO chance, just a very marginal one.

I did an experiment and started a game on deity+raging barbs. When the first barb group showed up, I opened world builder and placed a single longbowmen on a forested hill next to the barbs. Next turn four orcs were dead and the longbowmen was only lightly injured. I have the feeling those orcs are too optimistic about their odds of victory .

 

[Tarquelne]

Curious about something: Quite early in a game I took a Jade Torc off a Hellhound. Is eating someone with a Jade Torc the only way a Hellhound could have one?

 

[xienwolf]

Someone could have popped a torc from a lair and not bothered to pick it up, then the Hellhound hit the tile and grabbed it himself. But basically, yes.

 

[Tarquelne]

Someone could have popped a torc from a lair and not bothered to pick it up, then the Hellhound hit the tile and grabbed it himself. But basically, yes.

I that case I suggest occasionally have a Demon pop in possession of a magic item. It was fun needing to kill something for the Torc.
(Not that killing in general isn't fun - please don't misunderstand.)

 

[zup]

Yeps. We need items because we get so little xp.