Barbarian Spawn Rate Remains Insane

[Dwyer99]

Glad to see Deity players getting punished. Nothing personal, of course, but it should be a near impossible challenge.

Until they get the AIs able to fight a war competently, the Barbs being raging is a step in the right direction.

It hasn't been my experience that Barbs are a significant challenge on Deity, at least from my point of view. A big part of the problem that I've seen my friends have who have been playing Deity comes when they settle their first city poorly (sometimes low production starts happen, but often times there is at least a way to settle somewhere salvageable), they forgo building early military for the risk of quickly expanding into a second city or trying to get an early religion, or they send off their military into the four corners of the world, leaving virtually nothing at the home-front.

So long as you build an early military, fog-bust intelligently, improve tiles appropriately, and tech wisely, barbs are hardly an actual threat in a good majority of the games save for rare scenarios. From what I've seen, it's typically the same players who seemingly "attract" barbarian problems game after game, indicating a strategic problem rather than an actual problem with the game mechanic.

 

[Dwyer99]

Oh, sorry. Sometimes I can't read.

Settings: Deity, large, fractal, normal speed, France. Large map for more barbs and a civ with no early advantages. I don't play higher difficulties and was playing fast so didn't do very well especially not understanding Rise and Fall but it should be good enough.

As you can see, at no point was killing the barb scout a good idea. Later on I was able to surround and kill a scout but by then it isn't a problem.

The first barb attack was averted despite being sighted because I chased the scout that came from the scout to the opposite direction so they didn't make it back. This wasn't always possible. Knowing thus the southern part was safer, I improved tiles in the south and exapanded there.

The other 2 scouts just came around too fast. I could have build more units by this point but it would delay my 2nd city too much.

And then Pericles decided to be a dick. Why are France and Greece almost the sane color? Was sorta annoying. Fortunately he ended up paying me a bit of gold.

Immediate quick advice I'd give here would be to adjust the early build order to get a slinger out right away, maybe a builder afterwards followed by a couple more slingers before even considering a settler on the higher difficulties. Having the extra units early is just too valuable to pass up, imho. This allows you to get some units into scouting positions nearby while you tech archery and additionally builds your early attack and defense force, which you can quickly expand with another archer/warrior or two, easily defend from barbs, and deal with Pericles aggressively.

 

[Karpius]

Barbarians should really be based on the era tech of the lowest AI's.

Not necessarily. There was never much of a difference in weapons technology between the so-called 'barbarians' and the nation states they raided. In fact, the Assyrian Empire was devastated by the steppes peoples precisely because the Scythians and others had developed horseback riding on a large scale along with superior cavalry tactics while the Assyrians were largely clinging to horse drawn chariots, or hiring mercenaries from the steppe to deal with the threat.

Much the same happened to China, prompting the construction of the Great Wall, but also the move from chariots as shock troops to full cavalry.

'Barbarians' were not typically backward in weapons, but were usually less well organized and disciplined as soldiers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Glad to see Diety players getting punished. Nothing personal, of course, but it should be a near impossible challenge.

Until they get the AIs able to fight a war competently, the Barbs being raging is a step in the right direction.

Getting punished implies you made a poor choice. That choice should be somewhere in the actual gameplay, not the moment you select "deity".

I've already pointed out why that isn't consistently the case with poor barbarian design.

So long as you build an early military, fog-bust intelligently, improve tiles appropriately, and tech wisely, barbs are hardly an actual threat in a good majority of the games save for rare scenarios. From what I've seen, it's typically the same players who seemingly "attract" barbarian problems game after game, indicating a strategic problem rather than an actual problem with the game mechanic.

Nope.

Most games it's fine. Some games you get scout on you turn 4 and it's not fine.

Unless/until someone shows counterplay or choice other than selecting "no barbarians" that prevents t4 scout being a significant setback regardless of build order, there is no credible defense of the occurrence in the space of "adjust" or "strategy".

 

[Archon_Wing]

Immediate quick advice I'd give here would be to adjust the early build order to get a slinger out right away, maybe a builder afterwards followed by a couple more slingers before even considering a settler on the higher difficulties. Having the extra units early is just too valuable to pass up, imho. This allows you to get some units into scouting positions nearby while you tech archery and additionally builds your early attack and defense force, which you can quickly expand with another archer/warrior or two, easily defend from barbs, and deal with Pericles aggressively.

Well, I don't know. I think the units were sufficient. I didn't get anything pillaged and only lost a single warrior at turn 60 due to negligence and had 2 cities pretty fast. But I think I made my point that good manipulation of certain mechanics means that you can hold off a lot with not too many units.

This was on a large map so there was really no opportunity to attack him. But I admit, he probably would have attacked sooner too, lol. But I probably would have built more units. Admit that settler was probably too greedy.

 

[Dwyer99]

Getting punished implies you made a poor choice. That choice should be somewhere in the actual gameplay, not the moment you select "deity".
Nope.

Most games it's fine. Some games you get scout on you turn 4 and it's not fine.

Unless/until someone shows counterplay or choice other than selecting "no barbarians" that prevents t4 scout being a significant setback regardless of build order, there is no credible defense of the occurrence in the space of "adjust" or "strategy".

This is definitely a fair assessment in regards to the turn 0-5 bit. I have seen it happen, although to your point, in most games it doesn't happen. One extremely easy fix could simply be to prevent scouts from spawning until turn 10 or so. My statement was merely intended to imply that a majority of the other scenarios are far more controllable through strategy than some would care to admit.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I don't know. I think the units were sufficient. I didn't get anything pillaged and only lost a single warrior at turn 60 due to negligence and had 2 cities pretty fast.

This was on a large map so there was really no opportunity to attack him. But I admit, he probably would have attacked sooner too, lol.

On small deity maps there's no alternative to spamming early units. If you don't, most game's you'll die. You consistently get this progression:

- Settling anywhere, even min distance from own capital, is "too close" and causes a demand to not settle more (in essence).
- ~80% of AI across 4 games just plain don't like --> denounced
- Formal war before turn 30 (AI warrior rush). Since AI globally has +4 strength on deity, early UU (war carts etc) and Teddy can be problematic. 29 strength or more spammables can take cities no problem if you don't set up to stop it.

The only real option is to ASAP units that can survive this, kill the AI units, and take enough cities in response to be competitive. These AI rushes are also completely inept against walls. Archers can farm XP, keeping your own warriors alive to farm XP and upgrade is more challenging depending on terrain.

This is definitely a fair assessment in regards to the turn 0-5 bit. I have seen it happen, although to your point, in most games it doesn't happen. One extremely easy fix could simply be to prevent scouts from spawning until turn 10 or so. My statement was merely intended to imply that a majority of the other scenarios are far more controllable through strategy than some would care to admit.

Yes, anything after opening turns gives a lot more counterplay, including just stationing relatively low cost warriors in a way that ZoCs the scouts. That forces the thing into slower pathing, and lets you see it coming/quite possibly hit it while inbound + finish off with ranged or one defensive unit.

These can find their way into first 5-7 things built no problem, just getting scouted before you can even possibly complete 1st build is annoying because it guarantees a slower opening no matter what you chose to build.

 

[Archon_Wing]

On small deity maps there's no alternative to spamming early units. If you don't, most game's you'll die. You consistently get this progression:

- Settling anywhere, even min distance from own capital, is "too close" and causes a demand to not settle more (in essence).
- ~80% of AI across 4 games just plain don't like --> denounced
- Formal war before turn 30 (AI warrior rush). Since AI globally has +4 strength on deity, early UU (war carts etc) and Teddy can be problematic. 29 strength or more spammables can take cities no problem if you don't set up to stop it.

The only real option is to ASAP units that can survive this, kill the AI units, and take enough cities in response to be competitive. These AI rushes are also completely inept against walls. Archers can farm XP, keeping your own warriors alive to farm XP and upgrade is more challenging depending on terrain.

Well, small maps are always going to be skewed to that kind of crap. At least on the normal sized maps I've played on the distances are further and R&F you can no longer blindly 4 archer that crap, although it sometimes still happens to my annoyance.

As for war cart/ turn 10 warrior rush, well, I just put that in the same legion as Barb uprisings in Civ 4; basically the game decided to make a joke out of itself even if you prepared for it. It's a waste of time. But meh, this is why I don't like high difficulties in Civ; they just contort the gameplay so much but a necessary evil since the AI is so dumb. I mean I remember deity Civ 4, where Montezuma attacked before 1000 BC with 20 chariots. Yea. :/

 

[Karpius]

Most games it's fine. Some games you get scout on you turn 4 and it's not fine.

Unless/until someone shows counterplay or choice other than selecting "no barbarians" that prevents t4 scout being a significant setback regardless of build order, there is no credible defense of the occurrence in the space of "adjust" or "strategy".

I think its fine. Its the game. Its the chance of the random modifier that will always have some level of extremes in it. Though, honestly, I have never - including my few games with R&F - experienced what you are describing, though I can imagine its possible. Though I did have a game where my settler spawned inside a ring of impassable mountains once! Tried to play it, but it proved trickier than I was in the mood for. So I........restarted.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think its fine. Its the game. Its the chance of the random modifier that will always have some level of extremes in it. Though, honestly, I have never - including my few games with R&F - experienced what you are describing, though I can imagine its possible. Though I did have a game where my settler spawned inside a ring of impassable mountains once! Tried to play it, but it proved trickier than I was in the mood for. So I........restarted.

I see it a decent percentage of time on deity. Maybe it's not as common on lower difficulties since there's less AI stuff all over the place --> more spots for barb camps. I'd imagine larger maps have more distance on camps too (on average, just from total # hexes available). It could also be because I don't play maps larger than small in most cases (I don't like waiting longer for the AI to play than playing my own turns).

"It's the game" is not exactly a rock solid defense of a design decision. It isn't even an argument . That kind of comment could defend literally anything from crashes to +20 strength boosting great generals to Indian cities growing 20 times faster than other cities due to a bug to farming reducing food yield. All of those can also be "the game", which is why this isn't a good way to argue something is okay!

 

[Karpius]

"It's the game" is not exactly a rock solid defense of a design decision. It isn't even an argument . That kind of comment could defend literally anything from crashes to +20 strength boosting great generals to Indian cities growing 20 times faster than other cities due to a bug to farming reducing food yield. All of those can also be "the game", which is why this isn't a good way to argue something is okay!

Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think its a bug. I think it is simply a possibility within the game which is why I characterized it that way. I liken it to when I played table top war games that involved dice. There were always extremes at either end of the table that could be either devastating or hugely beneficial. If the designers want to narrow the range to remove the extremes a bit that may be more to the liking of some players, but I prefer the possible extremes myself.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Some games you get scout on you turn 4 and it's not fine.

Civ 4's system was much better, a few turns of no barbs then animals (that couldn't enter your borders) then gradually the animals are replaced by units as cities are built.

 

[Thormodr]

Civ 4's system was much better, a few turns of no barbs then animals (that couldn't enter your borders) then gradually the animals are replaced by units as cities are built.

I do miss the animals, tbh. Black panthers, wolves and Bears.

 

[Ondolindë]

I really enjoy barbs because:
1. They help upgrade my units. (In my second R&F game, I didn’t get this chance so I don’t know what I’m going to do with the Mongols down south)
2. It keeps the AI busy as well
3. It’s part of the challenge because it keeps you on your toes and that makes it interesting for me
4. It pushes you to adapt your strategy and learn the game. I rarely have a same sequence of steps, especially now in R&F with the added mechanics.

I’m having so very much fun. So much that I might consider playing my fourth deity game in over 2000 hours.

 

[pietro1990]

I really enjoy barbs because:
1. They help upgrade my units. (In my second R&F game, I didn’t get this chance so I don’t know what I’m going to do with the Mongols down south)
2. It keeps the AI busy as well
3. It’s part of the challenge because it keeps you on your toes and that makes it interesting for me
4. It pushes you to adapt your strategy and learn the game. I rarely have a same sequence of steps, especially now in R&F with the added mechanics.

I’m having so very much fun. So much that I might consider playing my fourth deity game in over 2000 hours.

I like them to but i hate it when they still exist in the industrial and modern era i mean i don't want to settle useless cities on the tundra and ice to avoid barb camps to spam units and i don't want to send a unit there to keep guard ..

They need to make them dissapear automaticly at some point.

 

[Draco84]

I played Vanilla with a mod (Yet Not Another Map Pack) or Community CQUI (not sure which) that allowed you to set the time before scouts appeared, I found that helps.

 

[Thormodr]

Considering that the AIs actually thank you now for dealing with barbarians, I like having lots of barbs in my games.

 

[kb27787]

Nowadays I breathe a sigh of relief when I see no horses in the vicinity... warrior and slinger barbs are OK, albeit annoying. Horse barbs are something else....
I do think a rework needs to be done on the tech tree. If you have AIs attacking you before t15 and horse barbs at t7-8 or so because a scout happened to see your city, which spawned with a horse tile, if you are not going to fix the barbs, then archery needs to be made a first tier tech rather than require animal husbandry or give the slinger 2 range to make that eureka more doable. (Why bother having so many first tier techs anyway when all the games require you to go AH -> archery every single time? Kinda defeats the purpose of redesigning the tech tree from BNW and it makes camp luxuries more powerful when compared to absolutely crap ones like pearls and incense, when already furs/ivory/truffles are the best luxes yield-wise since they can spawn on hills AND/OR forest/rainforest... either way "balanced" start is not "balanced at all IMO because they treat each lux and bonus the same)

AIs can be befriended early most of the time, even on deity (just found out that you can settle on top of luxuries and it will give you that lux even WITHOUT the necessary tech) so actually it is not hard to just give them a gift... once you get the joint war civic you can usually survive (if AI comes at you, offer joint war with a far, far away AI preferably) I've managed to befriend Gil who I had given a gift but had never risen to "friendly" status (just neutral... never the less when I offered DoF, he accepted) when he had 5 war carts at my borders (that I can see) and was probably a turn or two away from invading. AIs CAN be stopped from attacking with a DoF unlike in BNW where friends can backstab each other.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Civ 4's system was much better, a few turns of no barbs then animals (that couldn't enter your borders) then gradually the animals are replaced by units as cities are built.

The grace period was better, pure RNG on your scouting progression and needing to use fish boats and warriors with knowledge of hidden spawn rules less so . Basically Civ 4 > Civ 6 in the first 5-10 turns, then after that Civ 6 > Civ 4!

 

[Archon_Wing]

Horse barbs tho.

Well Civ 4 had barb axemen. And of course rng screw with jaguars.