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Barbarians are People too...

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Greywulf, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Imagine if in a Civ game you had the ability to choose to contact Barbarian groups and use diplomacy or even trade. Perhaps they would be divided into various clans throughout the world, and they could potentially war with eachother as well as civs and CS (real to history), which opens a whole set of new really cool possible options, like these...

    Pay them to stop invading you # (I've seen players' growth, production and science stumped early on because of endless Barbarians invading, so in such an unfair position you would have this option to save yourself from falling too far behind).
    Taunt them into invading you # (If you like barbarian farming, this could make it a little better for you, and they may produce more units as well, so more farming...plus you may be able to get distant barbarian camps to send warriors at you as well - This would allow you to keep your troops nearby to defend against other civs while you farm).
    Pay a ransom to give you back a lost villager, settler, or great person # (This would be really nice, especially if you don't have nearby troops. You would have two options of getting them back rather than just one).
    Pay them to fight other nearby Barbarians (Now you can send your troops to where you want them rather than keep a bunch of them standing guard all the time from barbarians).
    Pay them to bully/invade a CS # (Another way to complete those "Bully CS" quests, or to just get help with taking out a CS).
    Pay them to invade a particular civ # (The great thing about this is you can have military units invading someone without being at war with them yourself, just like privateers! Or you can just have additional support for your invading forces).
    Pay them to guard (Maybe there's an ancient ruin, archaeological site, natural wonder, or rare resource on a distant island that you want claim to, or maybe you could use some extra troops in your lands to defend against an invading civ).
    Gift them units # (Want them to do your dirty work but they are looking a bit weak? Perhaps they would be more successful at invading another civ if they had a few extra units, or want to make sure they are strong enough to guard something, and you need not lift a finger yourself...Plus it might make them like you better).
    Pay them to trade their explored map to you (Save you the trouble of sending scouts into areas that are full of Barbarians).
    Bully them into paying you (Have a big army and no gold? This could be a way to get a little extra coin on the side).
    Pay for intelligence on another civ # (Perhaps they know about newly acquired horses being trained for battle, or if there is a sneak attack being planned, or if a civ currently has a weak military).
    Receive messages from Barbarians # (Threatening you, warning you of an immanent invasion, or informing you about some nearby resource or natural wonder, even this could be useful for you).
    Warn them not to settle near you # (If they view you as intimidating, then they might listen and not found camps nearby...otherwise it might just make them angrier!)
    ...There's so many possibilities here!

    (Not all of these options would be added of course, but I wanted to discuss all the possibilities and find out which are everyone's favourites, and which ones we don't think will work so well)
    # = can still work if Barbarians are not divided into different independent groups.

    This adds historical realism to the game, more depth to the range of strategies, and makes the game more immersive and more interesting, and would not stop the ability to do Barbarian farming. I think it's a really fantastic idea, and I know plenty of others would like to see this in the game too! Additionally, this would mean that the early game play can stand out more uniquely from previous Civ games, and I know the Devs want to make this version stand out as more unique.
    And of course, there could continue to be some unfriendly Barbarians that refuse any communication/diplomacy at all as well (Maybe these specific groups could be renamed to "Bandits", which makes sense then that they only want to attack), but you could then pay other Barbs to deal with them while you focus on building wonders or exploring the world.

    Bare in mind, in the game's settings one could change things to better suit their play style, so you adjust this to how you would prefer it, like you could even completely turn off Barbarian diplomacy if you wanted to, or select specific diplomatic options you want and turn off ones you don't want, just like how you can make Barbarians more common or rarer.

    ***
     
    Manifold, Knasp, omniplex and 6 others like this.
  2. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Chieftain

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    Excellent Ideas there mate. I'd also love to see them able to (a) Capture a City & become an Independent City (Hostile) or (b) even evolve from Camps into Independent Cities (Hostile). With the new Rise & Fall Mechanics, this could allow you the opportunity to use Loyalty as a means of luring them to your Civilization.
     
  3. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Those are also very cool ideas ~ thank you for both your support and your suggestions!
     
    Aussie_Lurker likes this.
  4. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ

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    Would like to have more differentiation for barbarian tribes. They have started that somewhat with Horse Barbs spawning near Horse resources. Would like to see them named, as well. Like Goths, Vandals, etc.
     
  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    All good ideas so far, but, as I've posted before, let's take it One Step Further:

    Do away with Barbarian Tribes/Camps and Villages/Goodie Huts both.
    Instead, on the map would be "Settlements".

    A Settlement could be Friendly, Neutral, or Hostile.
    Hostile would be like the Barbarians now
    Friendly would be like the Villages/Goodie Huts now - only they don't disappear after you meet them, unless they all decide to pack up and Join Your Civ as a Builder or Settler
    Neutral would be neither, but depending on how you and other Civs interact with them, could become either Friendly or Hostile.

    And so, all the interactions in the OP are possible with Friendly or Neutral Factions, and maybe with the right interaction (Gold, Missionaries, maybe even Envoys) you can make Hostile/Neutral factions into Friendly or even Allied. Settlements could give you Tasks or Missions the way the City States do now, and by making Settlements Friendly or even Allied yo could get all kinds of benefits from them...

    For instance, historically 'Barbarians' were Trade Partners to Civilizations, and sometimes very important ones: Rome got Amber and Furs from the Germanic tribes, and the Chinese Dynasties got most of their warhorses from the nomads to their north - in exchange for fantastic quantities of Jade, Porcelain, and Silk!

    Barbarians were hired by many Civs - German, Goth, Sarmatian, Hun auxiliaries in the Roman Army, Hsung-Nu and other nomads in the Chinese, Alexander the Great had over 2000 Scythians in his army by the time he got to India - and that's just in the Ancient/Classical Eras - At one time, Byzantine Armies consisted almost entirely of Cataphracts and Hunnic mercenary horse-archers.

    In fact, Everybody hired horse-archers, because to both ride a horse well and fire a bow well from horseback are skills that require constant practice, that you cannot learn and practice in a city: there is virtually no such thing historically as a 'civilized' horse archer, unless they hired him from a 'barbarian' neighbor.

    And, of course, if there are several Settlements in the same area, and they all become Hostile, you might find yourself facing a Barbarian Migration/Horde descending on your Civ - like the historic Jurchen, Hsung-Nu, Huns, Gauls, Germans, Goths, Franks, etc., etc.

    By 'opening up' the interactions with the Smaller Than City 'settlements' on the map, the game could get a whole lot more dynamic and interesting. Also, by being able to trade with 'Barbarian' settlements for, say, Strategic Resources or Amenity-producing resources, it would also open up the possibilities for developing Civs and Upgrading Units that are sadly lacking the way Civ VI is designed now...
     
    Olleus, TahamiTsunami, Siptah and 3 others like this.
  6. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Those are all wonderful ideas!! Barbarians are just nothing but obstacles previously. Now we can do a lot with them. These suggestions by far are adding more fun into the game without breaking the balance. I will surely like to see them being added.

    On the other hand, if barbarians have got such amazing diplomacy. I would like to make diplomatic ties with barbarians rather than other civs. The glamour of this system will shadow the entire diplomacy in Civ VI.

    You know... we cant even bribe other civs into war, nor exchange informations, nor.... well, actually they can do none of the things in this list.
     
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  7. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Yes, ideally they would improve the diplomacy with the civs as well, which would be great.
    Thank you for your support!
     
  8. Naktis

    Naktis Chieftain

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    hmm they could even make different type of Barbarians like Amazons , they can spawn only in jungle tyles tho , on dessert tyles spawn another different type barbarians , and so on. Like desert saracen type ones could drain your religion , amazon aside from attacking destroy trade routes and envoys if dont clear them long enough.
     
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  9. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I would like graphical diversity for barbarians. Different abilities/goals for different „tribes“ don‘t sound appealing to me.
     
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  10. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Like what kind of graphical diversity? Racial? Ethnic? :p That could go badly with certain people.
     
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  11. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Civ VI made a tiny start in having some Barbarians spawn Horsemen and Horse-archers and others Warriors and Slingers, but then, as usual in this game, they never followed up on it.
    1....Settlements in Desert Tiles should be Hostile more often than not, because they have Nothing Extra to share, so tend to raid their more affluent neighbors (i.e, Everyone Else). Therefore, they will spawn Horsemen, but once the Camel has been domesticated (about early Classical Era) they can spawn 'special' Camel Riders - which you should be able to hire with the right Diplomatic (Bribery) preparation.
    2.... Settlements in Hills: all the units from them will have the'Alpine' Promotion and move faster in Hills - and you can Hire Them as 'Native Scouts', 'Native Auxiliaries', etc. - because you cannot get an Alpine-Enhanced Warrior any other way.
    3....Settlements on the coast, as now, will spawn a certain percentage (well over 50%) of Pirates - ships/boats appropriate to the Era (no starting with Quadirimes in the Ancient Era!) all of which can Raid/Pillage coastal tiles and 'steal' Civilian Units. BUT while you cannot hire pirates, you can pay them to attack only your neighbors and you can 'ransom back' your own civilians from them.
    4...Settlements in Jungle or Desert terrain would be very rare, because those are not inviting areas, but they both would spawn Special Units (Camel Riders above) like from the Jungle, all units with the 'Ranger' Promotion AND possibly a Special Unit - "Poison Dart Scouts' - a 'Barbarian' Scout unit with a Range Factor (1 tile range) and a nastily high range factor due to poison missiles - which you can Hire.
    - All of these are just a few of the possibilities. Settlements should also be able to exploit any Resource on or next to their Tile, and Trade these to Civs, making Trade with the 'Barbarians' a potentially very lucrative and important part of your Trade Network.
     
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  12. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    As was pointed out, this is a potential Minefield of Insult or Perceived Insult IF you try to graphically depict 'historical barbarians' or Tribes.

    However, the idea that 'Barbarian Units' should be graphically distinctive is not inherently bad. The trick is to have 'generic' Desert Settlement Units, Jungle Settlement Units, Horse Archers, etc. The advantage of this is that when you Hire these folks, they may take on your 'Civ colors' but you can still tell at a glance that This Unit does something special - and if the Diplomatic Situation changes, they may go home on you!
     
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  13. Valessa

    Valessa Communistress

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    I think the role of barbarians is and should be to obstruct you early on, and to force you to have some military presence. As such, I think there should not be a diplomatic option, that is just not "what they're there for".

    I do like the other ideas though, more distinct barbarians in particular would be very welcome.
     
  14. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    I agree, but I also think Limiting 'Barbarians' to that role makes the game that much less interesting, dynamic and leads indirectly to other inanities in the game, like static City States and a Trade System consisting of two separate and distinct trade systems neither of which as a result makes any sense.

    By, for a start, making every encounter with a Settlement on the map a Possibility rather than a Certainty, the game starts with more dynamic decision-making required: Do I trot right up to that Settlement with my puny scout and hope that they are friendly? Do I stay away from all Settlements until I can meet them with, say, a Warrior backed up by an Archer? The Settlements to my north are all neutral or friendly right now, but what if another Civ bribes them to attack me? How do I defend that border, or How Many Units do I need to keep an eye on them? What if All Them Settlements gang up on me?!
    All a heckofalot more interesting than: Go For the Village, Back Off From the Barbarian Camp from Turn 1 of the game to forever...
     
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  15. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    There is a place for that as well, I think, and actually we can have both functioning in the game at the same time. As mentioned in the OP, we could have the same old mindless attack bots around, and call them "Bandits" (and Bandits are a bit like that anyway, so it would make sense), while the other Barbarians would be more complex in behavior, with the option of either being an aggressor, similar to the Bandits, or being able to do a range of other things in stead. This would help to add more depth to the game, and more choice for the player.
     
  16. Staal

    Staal Chieftain

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    Who care what "certain people" think.
     
  17. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Well, if they buy games, Firaxis, 2K and any other game manufacturer, distributor, or developer...

    Which simply means instead of 'ethnic' or 'racial', we go with Functional graphic diversity:

    Any 'Barbarians' from Settlements/Camps in Tundra are wearing furs - fur loincloths, fur mantels, and big honking fur bonnets with horns sticking out, ala some of the illustrations in old Conan books.
    Barbarians from Settlements/Camps in Desert terrain are in head-to-foot flowing robes (NOT green - that has religious overtones) with spears made of Bone, not wood
    Barbarians from Settlements/Camps in the Rain Forest have grass/branches for camouflage, feather headdresses and (poison) blowpipes instead of Slings and Obsidian-tipped melee weapons
    Barbarians from Settlements/Camps in Hills or Forests are heavily tattooed or even stained/painted black down one entire side of their bodies (one German tribe was notorious for this in the early Imperial Roman times - it makes a striking figure!)

    You get the picture, I hope: 'Generic' or even 'Fantasy' Barbarian Warriors appropriate to the terrain/climate/surroundings to compliment the already-in-game differences in the types of Units 'spawned' by the Camps.
     
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  18. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    It's not about what's right. It's about what's political.
     
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  19. Staal

    Staal Chieftain

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    Hmm... lots of things annoy or offend me about certain games yet I still buy them if the gameplay is good. They'll do the same. The minority that don't can just choose not to play.
     
  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    I consider myself a historian by temperament if not vocation, and the number of things in the Civ series of games that 'annoy' me would take (have taken) years to Post on these forums alone!
    But I still play them more than all the other computer games out there put together.

    The fact remains that no merchant - which is what game companies are, at the bottom - willingly gives up any part of the customer base if they can avoid it. Hence, 'controversies' which distract or detract from people buying your product/game Are To Be Avoided at all costs.
    Not saying I agree, but that is the opinion of those in the Market, as shown by their actions again and again whenever someone starts protesting something they've done, said, or are reported, correctly or incorrectly, to have done or said.
     
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