Barbarians

[Thalassicus]

Spoiler :

One thing I would like to see is that barbs get resource units as well through barb camps, because right now exploring is quite easy, and you can explore the whole continent very quickly. That might cause problems for AI, but you can give them a higher bonus Vs barbs to compensate.

I haven't seen a barb sword or horse in a very long time, at least as I can remember. The *vast* majority are poachers (archers) I believe. I'm trying to remember if I've seen anything other than warriors and archers and I honestly can't remember.

Come to think of it, neither have I.

For quite a while now barbs have been resourceless: warriors, archers, pikes, crossbows, muskets. However, this works pretty well, and would probably be even better if there were more spears.

Based on the discussion above I did some research, and found a way to let Barbarians upgrade their units. I chose to limit these upgrades to barbs in camps or at sea. Post here if you'd like to see adjustments made to this, or changes to barbarians in general.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've been fine-tuning the time when barbarians can appear, and will delay it slightly based on your feedback.

 

[wobuffet]

This sounds like a great idea, as long as Barbarians' tech lags significantly behind leading Civs' (as I believe they do in vanilla, at least).
How exactly does the Barbarian (and City-State, I guess) tech stealing work?

This was proposed by Jaybe in the "Late Game Conquest" thread, but would it difficult/impossible to allow Barbarians to heal 1 HP per turn (whether only in camps, only when fortified, or every turn with something like March)?

 

[Thalassicus]

It appears that once any major civ has a technology, all barbarians and citystates also acquire that technology. I haven't seen variables to mod this vanilla behavior. This means vanilla barbs do not lag in technology - a barb knight can appear once anyone has Chivalry. In vem I created a barb version of each unit so I can delay the unlock technology.

So in other words... vem has barbarian tech lag, but vanilla does not.

 

[wobuffet]

Oh. Given the tech runaway Civ problem we already have, I don't like this in its current form then.

edit: Given your explanatory edit (here I was thinking that VEM's Barb unit name changes were just cosmetic/for flavor!), I absolutely think upgrades are a great idea; Brutes and Poachers shouldn't still be around in the Renaissance Era, even the units have been around since turn 10.

If advanced Barb units are coming around too soon and making things unduly difficult for Civs just because they aren't the tech-runaways, that should be dealt with through (A) curbing huge tech runaways somehow, preferably, or (B) moving the problematic Barb units further back into the tech tree. In any case, upgrading the Barb units makes a lot of sense and I see no reason to implement it right now.

 

[Thalassicus]

You and I both edited our posts shortly after posting them. I think my updated post answers your question.

Manually healing barbs each turn should be easy to do, if we want to (~15 minutes work).

 

[albie_123]

It's a shame that CS's and Barbs work like that. I would've thought at the very least it should be when MOST Civs have a tech, minor Civs get access to it as well. It's disconcerting being on an island alone with a CS and see them leaps and bounds ahead in military technology.

I wouldn't mind slowly healing Barbs, just so an archer hurt in the first few turns isn't still bleeding 50 turns later.

 

[pawwh98]

I think, barbarians are too strong at the moment that way. I go for a fast Great Library and even then have a hard time to keep up technologically with the barbarian units in the beginning of the game.

In my second game, the barbarians had swordsmen already around turn 60.

 

[wobuffet]

Looks like Jaybe (whose original proposal is here), albie, and I support something like +1HP per turn (Thal, I suspect that you'd be much more likely to have an idea how to balance whether this should happen only when fortified, only in encampments, or every turn). If zero or few people come out against it here, why not give it a shot?

15 minutes seems like a pretty good deal for a potentially big increase in fun (esp. for those who like fighting Barbs – a group that I gather includes you, Thal)!

 

[albie_123]

Since it's just 1HP, I don't really see a huge problem if it is every turn, but if it's just as easy to make it only when fortified, then that's probably a better option. (And in that case, I think 2HP would be fine as well.)

 

[Thalassicus]

It's basically a camp bonus either way, because barbs rarely fortify outside camps. I've added +2 healing per turn to fortified barbarians in camps, and +1/turn to fortified barbs elsewhere and barb ships. This is slightly less than the +3/turn civilized units get in unowned territory. I included ships because they never fortify, and triremes can get stuck on a coastline for millenia without being destroyed.

I also increased the AI's vs-barb bonus to 25% to compensate (was 20%).

 

[albie_123]

Makes sense to me. Making camps stronger is a good idea, and healing in them makes them more formidable than just another archer to take care of. It reminds me of back in Civ 4 when Barbarians, left to their own devices, would create their own cities, serving as a base of operations of sorts.

 

[wobuffet]

I've added +2 healing per turn to fortified barbarians and barb ships. This is slightly less than the +3/turn civilized units get in unowned territory.

Great! That was quick!

I'm slightly worried Poachers are going to be a nightmare now in the early game (maybe their ranged strength could be nudged down?), but I guess we can wait and see with that.

I included ships because they never fortify, and triremes can get stuck on a coastline for millenia without being destroyed.

This made me giggle. xD

 

[pawwh98]

Hi,

in my v131.47 beta game (prince, standard settings), barbarian caravels and swordsmen started to appear in turn 83, which seems to be much too early.

 

[The_J]

[...]

Moderator Action: Bug report merged with the main barbarian discussion thread.

 

[MortalD]

It's basically a camp bonus either way, because barbs rarely fortify outside camps. I've added +2 healing per turn to fortified barbarians in camps, and +1/turn to fortified barbs elsewhere and barb ships. This is slightly less than the +3/turn civilized units get in unowned territory. I included ships because they never fortify, and triremes can get stuck on a coastline for millenia without being destroyed.

I also increased the AI's vs-barb bonus to 25% to compensate (was 20%).

W8ted for this !

Gta start new game + Immortal + raging barbs right away

 

[Zaldron]

You and I both edited our posts shortly after posting them. I think my updated post answers your question.

Manually healing barbs each turn should be easy to do, if we want to (~15 minutes work).

I'd have to see this in action but my gut instinct is that this would just increase frustration and make honor opener more or less mandatory unless you build a lot of early units (consider when you're healing up for 1-2 turns to finish off a barb, and a new barb spawns AND the old one has healed = dead unit for you).

 

[Thalassicus]

I highly recommend trying a scout+scout+warrior combo in the early game if you have trouble with barbs. Scouts are cheap, and with that trio I can take on any barbarians without ever losing a unit, no Honor required. The +60% flanking bonus is very powerful. Combined arms is the way to go! The experience lets our scouts reach the immensely valuable Medic promotion. You also have a chance of those units getting their Opportunity to upgrade.

I usually start my build order with two scouts I send off exploring. Once barbarians start moving towards my empire I bring the trio in towards my capital, kill off the advancing barbs, then hunt down and clear their camps. Once the area is secure I send a scout exploring further on the continent. If it looks like an AI might rush me, I keep all three at home. Medic-scouts are great for healing, and if necessary, can be used as cheap cannon fodder to slow down the AI's rush.

 

[Babri]

I think strong barbs is a good idea. This way early expansion would be put in check & civs left alone won't expand like mad. I would actually prefer if groups of 3-4 barb units organize & try to attack your city in attempt to loot it instead of the rule of just going on attacking spree as soon as spawned.

 

[Jaybe]

I think strong barbs is a good idea. This way early expansion would be put in check & civs left alone won't expand like mad. I would actually prefer if groups of 3-4 barb units organize & try to attack your city in attempt to loot it instead of the rule of just going on attacking spree as soon as spawned.

Yes, instead of barbs having -10% vs. cities, give them +10 to 15%.