Barbarossa: The War in the East 1941-1945

[highphin]

I've just started playing a "Play-by-Email" game with a friend of mine in which I am the Germans and he is the SU. It'll take a while to get a feel for if it's balanced, but from what I can tell this scenario hasnt been tested human vs human. We tried playing it using the "Hotseat" mode, but due to the long time for turns, it didnt work too well. I'll post results, but I've just finished my first turn as the Germans (took 2 cities, goanna take at least 2 next turn and got 2 Great Leaders [used 'em for Corps]). From what we discovered in the "Hotseat" game, if the German player spends lots of time bombing the Russian rail/roads then Germany can take 6 or 7 cities before the Russians can bring up many reserves. As the SU against the AI, I dont think the AI bombed ANY of my rail/roads.

 

[Dr Corbett]

I can't download the art files, for some reason.

 

[AKauhanen]

I can't download the art files, for some reason.

Maybe it's because the art files are being upgraded to version 1.1 ?
Later they will work.

 

[Sarevok]

I guess thats why, 1.1 is coming tommorow, as is TGW 2.1

 

[Rocoteh]

I've just started playing a "Play-by-Email" game with a friend of mine in which I am the Germans and he is the SU. It'll take a while to get a feel for if it's balanced, but from what I can tell this scenario hasnt been tested human vs human. We tried playing it using the "Hotseat" mode, but due to the long time for turns, it didnt work too well. I'll post results, but I've just finished my first turn as the Germans (took 2 cities, goanna take at least 2 next turn and got 2 Great Leaders [used 'em for Corps]). From what we discovered in the "Hotseat" game, if the German player spends lots of time bombing the Russian rail/roads then Germany can take 6 or 7 cities before the Russians can bring up many reserves. As the SU against the AI, I dont think the AI bombed ANY of my rail/roads.

highpin,

This is very interesting!
I am really looking forward to reports on this.

Rocoteh

 

[Adler17]

The German Kriegsmarine sent the Tirpitz and a few cruiser to intercept Russian ships in the Baltic trying to flee to Sweden. This didn´t happen, the Russian capital ships stayed in port. They were a good target for German bombers, which damaged badly or sunk nearly all Russian cruiser and battleships in the baltic. The most famous incidendt is the sinking of the Marat by Rudel. However the naval aspect was very low and the Russians never had the superiority on the Baltic, even in May 1945.
Oh I forgot to mention that the name of the Finish Skijäger Sisi is (~Partisan). They caused the Russians many trouble...

Adler

 

[AKauhanen]

However the naval aspect was very low and the Russians never had the superiority on the Baltic, even in May 1945.

The only successes the russian fleet had in WW2 were the annexation of the Kuriir islands from Japan as Japan was helpless and the sinking of civilian transportships when Germans fleed Köningberg at the end of the war. And even that only because they managed to take the Germans by supprise because the Finnish government had given our seamine maps in the Finnish-Soviet peacetreaty and the Soviet fleet could get out of it's cage by supprise.

Oh I forgot to mention that the name of the Finish Skijäger Sisi is (~Partisan). They caused the Russians many trouble...

I woulden't translate Sissi as Partisan.. Sissi means more like "Forest Commando".
And yes, we caused the Russians a lot of trouble in that war. Casualties went close to Finns 1 : Russians 20 exchange rate. Thats why I have been trying to campaing about that the Russians should have a lot cheaper and somewhat weaker unit.. the casualty differences wount come with the [7.9.1] unit.. Now I think the scenario is more toward the Germans. Russian infantry should be cheaper. Now the Russians just don't seem to be able to over produce the Germans.. or even halt the advance with massed quantaty.
Im winning the demigod game as Germany. The Finnish game I stopped playing as the Germans took Moskow and I Leningrad and Murmansk in winter 1941. ( I maybe added too much starting units to me heh )

 

[laisak]

Straight translation for sissi is guerrilla. Although correct, the word guerrilla has come to mean a different type of warfare (sissi troops did use the now callled "guerrilla tactics" to some extent), but people now have mixed meanings for it.

I think "sissi" would be too blunt for a non-finnish player.

I prefer "jäger" since "partisan", "forest commando" and "light infantry" sound too generic and it's close to the finnish word "jääkäri".

I know giving it a german name when there is finnish and english(scenario is english) names to pick from, sounds a bit odd. But I still think it's the best one. I'd guess that everyone who has ever seen a ww2 movie knows what jäger means.

 

[Sarevok]

Barbarossa 1.1 is up and running:

Changes:

- New Units
- Changed Wonders
- City Garrisons
- New OOB
- Soviets do not have Turn 1
- New Graphics
- and MUCH more!

 

[Sarevok]

Also, today August 23rd was the day that Ricthoffen's bombers appeared over Stalingrad and began bombing the city. In other words, the batte started today 62 years ago.

 

[chucknra]

Is there any other place to download? I get timed out when I try to download the art & text file...I can download the 2nd file though.

 

[Rocoteh]

Version 1.1 is a very strong version!

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

I think with the now Stalinist Oppression (negative)
Wonder removed, playbalance should be much better.

Rocoteh

 

[Sarevok]

I think with the now Stalinist Oppression (negative)
Wonder removed, playbalance should be much better.

Rocoteh

I agree. Do you like 1.1?

 

[AKauhanen]

I agree. Do you like 1.1?

After a little playtesting I have to say:
It does improve the scenario a Lot
This is one of the most playable scenarios I have played and the level of detail is very high.
Still with the masses of good suggestions I do feel a little bit sorry that so many of the good suggestions were leftout.. There could be a hardcore strategy Mod of version 1.1 in what many of the suggestion could be in. (It woulden't need a new EAST folder and so take only marginal upload space. ) Other people may disagree with these suggestions, but in my mind they would be good. And don't worry this is the last time I mention them:

1) Tank Destroyers should be defencive/support-tanks like in real history. ( I have before explained how this would be implemented well)

2) AT-guns & AA-guns for the Soviets and small countries. These guns would have range 0 and improving ranged damage as technology advances. They should be capturable and immobile. Only movable by Trucks, halftracks and horses.)

3) The German 88mm looks stupid when it moves it should be immobile and only movable by a Truck, Halftrack and horses.

4) The population icons look like from the stone age. They should be industrial or even modern in the west.

5) Workers are still from the stone age. They should be atleast industrial.

6) Workers should cost more and so be more important. Now they are used as bait against the stupid AI.

7) Repearing mines/farms should be available a lot sooner but take much time.

8) Soviet Guards Division is unhistorically cheap. (How can Russia have massive infantry losses with cheap&superior Infantry ? They could build good equiped infantry, but it costed a lot. Normal Russian infantry was cheap and badly equipped. Lowering the Soviet Infantry's cost to 40-50 and skills to [7.7.1] it would improve game balance (as Russia has great cost-effectiveness) and realism with higher soviet casualties as poorly equiped infantry was sent to stop the German/Finn/Hungarian/Romanian/Bulgarian/Italian advance.

9) The Soviet military base of Hanko should be added at the southest point of Finland.

10) Southwest Finland is mainly farmland.

11) Tornio isen't good farming land and it isen't so industrial atleast at this time.

12-15) Thundra should have a move cost of 2 and a defence bonus of atleast 30! SKI infantry should have ignore move cost in thundra. All of Finlands infantry was ski infantry. All of Finnish infantry was ski infantry, but because the normal infantry divisions had heavy equipment they have the movement of 1. Jägers had only light equipment(mortars/machineguns) and were fast moving because of it. Finnish infantry was specialized to forest tactics so maybe ignore move cost in forest..? Finland has a lot of swampforest, but it looks really wierd being almost all swamp...? Half of the Finnish infantry was Jäger infantry. Jägers aren't super infantry (costing 170?? cost-effectiveness pure crap?) Jägers are fast moving attack tactics using infantry. Jägers diden't have heavy defence equipment like heavy mortars or AT-mines. Their defence can't be better than normal infantry's. Finland dosen't have tanks to build (Realistic I have to admit). Germany gave us the only tanks that really could do something. Finland coulden't build tanks in WW2. (only 6 tanks in total ! Anti-tank/air guns more.) But now Finland dosen't have anything to make the innitial attack to liberate Karelia!?!? Now Finland can't even build any attack troops..?? And as a Finn I fail to accept that mongrel as Finland. It's like Finlands "head & uppertorso" was cutoff. Our swamp isen't like Florida's swamp plains, ours is swamp FOREST.


16) Germany's & Finland's Great Military leaders were already given. They be added.

17) There was no Finnish troops in Lappi (Northern Finland). Only Germans. The Finnish troops there should be moved south to enable the Finnish advance. Now Finland will lose Capital Helsinki in few turns.. (The battle goes the wrong way!)

18) Vyborg(Viipuri) was Finlands second largest/richest city. And had Europe's biggest Paper industry. The Soviets used it mainly to build explosivemass for artillery shells.

19) Western Germany should have more industry or have a Wonder "German industrial heartland" what increases production and becomes obsolite as the Americans start mass bombing West Germany.

20) Civilopedia still has errors what have been pointed out before.

21) Germanys allies were Republics. Just rename the Government to Republic.

22) Germanys allies leaders are called Great Leader, Emperor/Empress. This is stupid. They were Presidents, Prime Ministers and a General. This could be fixed giving all them a Government of their type.

23) Nazism and Fascism diden't have a draft rate of 2.. it was more like 1. I understand it somewhat that Germany can't draft (in the beginning), but the smaller countries relied more on quickly drafting more infantry when the situation got bad.


24) The ally coutries weren't genetically so weak compared with Germany and Russia that they diden't have other skills than militaristic. In my mind they should have atleast:
Romania: Com Agr
Hungary: Mil Ind
Bulgaria: Mil Com
Italy: Religius Agr
Finland: Mil Ind

25) Unsure but does the adviser still say "The BABYLONIAN army fears our Finnish Infantry ?" It should be fixed.

26) Leningrad could and Sevastapol could have some immobile ships to bombard the German advance from harbor. They would be sinked before/as the Germans captures these cities.

27) Tallinn should have fortress(shore) guns. Even if you don't want to enable building ships or shoreguns there was some strategic importance from them in some areas on the Eastern Front and they should be placed there. It would give more reason to try to conquer these cities fast and strategic meaning for the Soviets to try to stall the Germans there under their fire.

28) And could someone answer does Mass Conscription do anything..? You don't need it for Era advancement, but I can't find anything what needs it for anything..??

Thats all. Othervice great scenario

 

[Sarevok]

1) Tank Destroyers should be defencive/support-tanks like in real history. ( I have before explained how this would be implemented well)

Im just waiting for stat suggestions...

2) AT-guns & AA-guns for the Soviets and small countries. These guns would have range 0 and improving ranged damage as technology advances. They should be capturable and immobile. Only movable by Trucks, halftracks and horses.)

The scenario should not go that far. AT guns were in regular divisions as well as Artillery units. AA guns are represented because we do not need infantry units with air-defence and they were essential.

3) The German 88mm looks stupid when it moves it should be immobile and only movable by a Truck, Halftrack and horses.

Tell that to the graphic maker, not me

4) The population icons look like from the stone age. They should be industrial or even modern in the west.

Ok

5) Workers are still from the stone age. They should be atleast industrial.

ok

6) Workers should cost more and so be more important. Now they are used as bait against the stupid AI.

Weaking the already stupid AI is not what I have in mind.

7) Repearing mines/farms should be available a lot sooner but take much time.

the main effort was to the war. Besides the real strength of production is in the terrain, not the improvements.

8) Soviet Guards Division is unhistorically cheap. (How can Russia have massive infantry losses with cheap&superior Infantry ? They could build good equiped infantry, but it costed a lot. Normal Russian infantry was cheap and badly equipped. Lowering the Soviet Infantry's cost to 40-50 and skills to [7.7.1] it would improve game balance (as Russia has great cost-effectiveness) and realism with higher soviet casualties as poorly equiped infantry was sent to stop the German/Finn/Hungarian/Romanian/Bulgarian/Italian advance.

50 shields is ridiculous, the soviets will have 800 infantry by 1942. The Guards division on the other hand may be changed.

9) The Soviet military base of Hanko should be added at the southest point of Finland.

coordinates...

10) Southwest Finland is mainly farmland.

ok

11) Tornio isen't good farming land and it isen't so industrial atleast at this time.

all cities have the small factory. Medium factories is considered to be industrialized. German factories make up for that at home.

12-15) Thundra should have a move cost of 2 and a defence bonus of atleast 30! SKI infantry should have ignore move cost in thundra. All of Finlands infantry was ski infantry. All of Finnish infantry was ski infantry, but because the normal infantry divisions had heavy equipment they have the movement of 1. Jägers had only light equipment(mortars/machineguns) and were fast moving because of it. Finnish infantry was specialized to forest tactics so maybe ignore move cost in forest..? Finland has a lot of swampforest, but it looks really wierd being almost all swamp...? Half of the Finnish infantry was Jäger infantry. Jägers aren't super infantry (costing 170?? cost-effectiveness pure crap?) Jägers are fast moving attack tactics using infantry. Jägers diden't have heavy defence equipment like heavy mortars or AT-mines. Their defence can't be better than normal infantry's. Finland dosen't have tanks to build (Realistic I have to admit). Germany gave us the only tanks that really could do something. Finland coulden't build tanks in WW2. (only 6 tanks in total ! Anti-tank/air guns more.) But now Finland dosen't have anything to make the innitial attack to liberate Karelia!?!? Now Finland can't even build any attack troops..?? And as a Finn I fail to accept that mongrel as Finland. It's like Finlands "head & uppertorso" was cutoff. Our swamp isen't like Florida's swamp plains, ours is swamp FOREST.

you said put swamp, i put swamp. I only do what I am told to for instructions unless I know they are wrong. Do not give me wrong information or I will simply ignore it.

16) Germany's & Finland's Great Military leaders were already given. They be added.

thats for 1.2

17) There was no Finnish troops in Lappi (Northern Finland). Only Germans. The Finnish troops there should be moved south to enable the Finnish advance. Now Finland will lose Capital Helsinki in few turns.. (The battle goes the wrong way!)

Thats for the bad luck of a Finnish player. That is what the Finnish army fought with, and that is what they have in the scenairo.

18) Vyborg(Viipuri) was Finlands second largest/richest city. And had Europe's biggest Paper industry. The Soviets used it mainly to build explosivemass for artillery shells.

and...?

19) Western Germany should have more industry or have a Wonder "German industrial heartland" what increases production and becomes obsolite as the Americans start mass bombing West Germany.

Already done

20) Civilopedia still has errors what have been pointed out before.

I cannot do the civilopedia anymore. My school starts in 2 days.

21) Germanys allies were Republics. Just rename the Government to Republic.

Romania was under the fascists, Italy was Fascist, Hungary would later become Fascist...

22) Germanys allies leaders are called Great Leader, Emperor/Empress. This is stupid. They were Presidents, Prime Ministers and a General. This could be fixed giving all them a Government of their type.

...

23) Nazism and Fascism diden't have a draft rate of 2.. it was more like 1. I understand it somewhat that Germany can't draft (in the beginning), but the smaller countries relied more on quickly drafting more infantry when the situation got bad.

The axis have much fewer cities to draft from than the USSR.

24) The ally coutries weren't genetically so weak compared with Germany and Russia that they diden't have other skills than militaristic. In my mind they should have atleast:
Romania: Com Agr
Hungary: Mil Ind
Bulgaria: Mil Com
Italy: Religius Agr
Finland: Mil Ind

This is WWII, not world history. These traits are what they are at the time.

25) Unsure but does the adviser still say "The BABYLONIAN army fears our Finnish Infantry ?" It should be fixed.

He shouldnt...

26) Leningrad could and Sevastapol could have some immobile ships to bombard the German advance from harbor. They would be sinked before/as the Germans captures these cities.

Adding new units just for 1 single purpouse in 1 city is a waste of memory. Graphics take up space, and this file cannot be too big.

27) Tallinn should have fortress(shore) guns. Even if you don't want to enable building ships or shoreguns there was some strategic importance from them in some areas on the Eastern Front and they should be placed there. It would give more reason to try to conquer these cities fast and strategic meaning for the Soviets to try to stall the Germans there under their fire.

see 26

28) And could someone answer does Mass Conscription do anything..? You don't need it for Era advancement, but I can't find anything what needs it for anything..??

Not every tech has to do something. Not all of them do in Civ3 yetthey are there.

 

[Gunner]

Wow, this scenario is HUGE. I can't begin to realize how long it took you guys to make this. I'm kinda overwhelmed by it all.

 

[Sarevok]

Wow, this scenario is HUGE. I can't begin to realize how long it took you guys to make this. I'm kinda overwhelmed by it all.

at most it took 10 days to make.

 

[AKauhanen]

Ouh and forgot ! The first one is really far-off and I don't really mean this as a upgrade but something that could be made with this system in a different way.. or a idea that could be played with. Here it goes:

It was good that the wonder Stalinistic Oppression was removed as way it was because it should have always been a PART of Stalins government not Russia!! Stalinistic Russia isen't the only possibility for Russia. What if there would have been a coup d'etat or a civilwar in the war times and Stalin would have been removed ? The Wonder stalinistic oppression should have always been a government enabled/disabled Wonder ! If the Germans conquer Moscow the Wonder would disable as the Germans government isen't Stalinistic.
Im just one of those people who believe that Russia would have managed even as Stalin would have been removed and a different kind of ruler placed. Hitler could be replacable aswell. There could be different possibilities of government types for the countries. What if the assassination of Hitler would have succeeded? It could be a tech in the game or a possibility at any time in the game. Only the Italians and Romanians can change their leader in and out without a period of anarchy or civil war. And because of this they should have the religius characteristic. A "civil war" should be about 8 turns long. Have to admit that the strong despotic way of drafting people and under equipping/arming them and sending them to halt the German highly equipped armies was very Stalin's style not something a different kind of government/ruler would have done. Stalin was Despotic+Cruel+Effective= Productive. The idea fascinates me what a different kind of leadership in the times of WW2 could have managed in place of Hitler in Germany or Stalin in Russia..? Could Russia have survived without the "draft 4 units per turn and shoot the workers who can't produce fast enough as traitors of the Motherland" -Stalinism? Cruel, bad, but productive.
And by the way.. the Wonder Stalinistic oppression wasen't a bad (government reguired!) Wonder idea, but it should have made "worker camps" in all Russian cities not just one "factory" in Moscow.. heh
Ofcourse there should be a Russian Wonder(s) in the Urals (or Moscow..?) what would make a Small Factory,Coal Plant and food supply to every Russian City to implement better the "Burning Land strategy" the Soviets used. So as the Germans advance they woulden't get factories, coal plants and food supplies and so would get under 75% production compared to what the Russians got from these cities. It is a better way of implementing "the burning land strategy of the Soviets" than "the German AI razes every city" . The Russians would *virtually* burn the small factories, coal plants and food supplies as the Germans conquer the cities. [In game mechanics these buildings would just disappear as the Wonder in Moscow (or Urals?) woulden't any more affect the conquered city]. These Wonders woulden't be government reguired. Stalin could be replaced and these would still work. (And I know it would be stupid to start a coup d'etat as the Germans are massing across the border, but I just hate Stalin so much that I would want to kill him and place a different kind of rule in Russia when I play as Russia.
Germans could build worker camps too ofcourse. But only in Conquered cities ofcourse. I invented away to do it: There is a invisible [no icon selected] strategic resource under every Russian city named Russian City then there is close to it a invisible strategic resource named worker camp. A improvement can be now done named Worker Camp/forced labor/German Brutality or what ever you like. It reguires both the Russian City resource and Worker Camp resource inside the city radius. The improvement would cause unhappiness but increase productivity. This is a way for the Germans player to decide will he be a bad guy or a liberator. But if the Forced Labor/German Brutality-building would increase productivety at the price of unhappiness ofcourse I would build it. Maybe not in Tallinn but in Russia yes.
If you ask dosen't this unbalance the game toward the Germans/Finns/Hungarians/Bulgarians/Italians/Romanians well.. No. Remember the Stalinistic Oppression wonder..? Yes, Moscow (Urals?) still has it. If Stalin conqueres any city the Stalinistic rule is implented at ones. Finnish people read from history books how the Russians treaded us when we were under their occupation. Well the same could happen again if you don't play well.

 

[Rocoteh]

Sarevok,

Yes, I repeat I think we have achieved
an strong improvement compared to 1.0.

Rocoteh