[R&F] Basically impossible to win city states with loyalty?

[Bojevus]

I've got what should be a slam dunk absorption of a city state in a game:

• City state surrounded by 5 high population cities, none farther than 5 tiles, two at three tiles.
• It's a golden age
• There are very few envoys to this city state (5 other than my own)
• I've got additional pressure from Amani
• I can do bread and circuses from three of the cities

And yet I can't push them into the red.

I've tried espionage, but removing other civs' envoys doesn't reduce the "other factors" loyalty boost.

Is it just impossible to get a city state via loyalty outside of some wildly improbable circumstance?

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I think it's because IDENTITY_PER_TURN_FROM_CITY_STATES is 20, the same value that a tile can get from loyalty pressure by default (LOYALTY_PER_TURN_FROM_NEARBY_CITIZEN_PRESSURE_MAX_LOYALTY), aka even if you reach 20, 20-20=0, their loyalty wont change, unless they lack amenities which case they suffer -Loyalty per turn.

But I could be wrong, as there are hidden factors calculating loyalty. This is just from my experience.

However You can easily alter this value and make it possible to flip (in theory), or I can write you a single script for it, if you wish.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The devs said it is possible, only very difficult. I think even your own envoys contribute to its loyalty.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I think it's because IDENTITY_PER_TURN_FROM_CITY_STATES is 20, the same value that a tile can get from loyalty pressure by default (LOYALTY_PER_TURN_FROM_NEARBY_CITIZEN_PRESSURE_MAX_LOYALTY), aka even if you reach 20, 20-20=0, their loyalty wont change, unless they lack amenities which case they suffer -Loyalty per turn.

But I could be wrong, as there are hidden factors calculating loyalty. This is just from my experience.

However You can easily alter this value and make it possible to flip (in theory), or I can write you a single script for it, if you wish.

I believe this is correct.

The maximum pressure you can exert from nearby cities is -20. City State's get a base +20 defence.

So to flip, you need another factor at work. The two possibilities that I'm aware of are:
a) Amenities: if they're unhappy, they will have negative loyalty
b) Amani: but she's at most a -2, so they only need to be up 1 amenity (+3 from happiness) to offset her impact

 

[Bojevus]

I think it's because IDENTITY_PER_TURN_FROM_CITY_STATES is 20, the same value that a tile can get from loyalty pressure by default (LOYALTY_PER_TURN_FROM_NEARBY_CITIZEN_PRESSURE_MAX_LOYALTY), aka even if you reach 20, 20-20=0, their loyalty wont change, unless they lack amenities which case they suffer -Loyalty per turn.

But I could be wrong, as there are hidden factors calculating loyalty. This is just from my experience.

I think that's right, but it's also crazy. The best you can ever do is even out their inherent loyalty boost with your own population pressure, and then if they've gotten more than two envoys OR have decent happiness, they're invulnerable. I'm not big into modding the game, but I may fiddle around with it.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I think that's right, but it's also crazy. The best you can ever do is even out their inherent loyalty boost with your own population pressure, and then if they've gotten more than two envoys OR have decent happiness, they're invulnerable. I'm not big into modding the game, but I may fiddle around with it.

A simple adjustment would be to allow Spies to run the Foment Unrest action (or whatever it's called) in City States, the same way they can in major civ cities.

 

[Rosty K]

It might be the right thing to have actually, as what happens if you accidentally absorb the CS of which you are a suzerain, and want to remain such? You don't have a way to restore a CS once it has joined you, do you? (And even worse, it could join your enemy)

 

[knighterrant81]

We've got two conflicting mechanics going on here: loyalty and the whole city-state concept. City-States are supposed to be independent, one-city civs that can provide added benefits to your civ through diplomacy. You aren't supposed to be able to take direct control of city-states through the loyalty mechanic because otherwise it would be difficult for city states to survive at all later in the game, when the map is full and multiple neighboring civs are running golden ages. If you want to take over a city state, use your military. If you manage your diplomacy correctly, it isn't a big deal as far as warmongering penalties go.

 

[TomKQT]

It might be the right thing to have actually, as what happens if you accidentally absorb the CS of which you are a suzerain, and want to remain such? You don't have a way to restore a CS once it has joined you, do you? (And even worse, it could join your enemy)

Exactly. This is why you really shouldn't be able to absorb a city-state unless you try really hard.
(And I think you shouldn't be able to absorb a city-state even if you try really hard...)

 

[Victoria]

So pressure wise the best you can do is 0.
They also get +1 for monument and +3/+6 for happiness.

Starve them for -4
Make them miserable for -3/-6
Amani them for -2
A forment of unrest could speed things up.

It would require a DOW so that’s surprise warmongering but no warmongering for the flip.

 

[Sukayo]

Digging out this as in one of my ultralong games Jerusalem fails now loyality, after all other leaders did not manage the presure from neutral cities - so no envoys others than mine, as other AI leaders are too far away now, Rom, Hungary, Galizie and Norway are history by dark ages and loyality presssure loss from neutral cities. Is my 1st try with all thos enew things, was a big surprise for me.

 

[Equilin]

I did it before in a heavy mod game with eleanor's ability combined with Kandy and extra palace slots from Kongo, so i get multiple stacking bonuses making nearby CSes go red, and i had to edit the files so CS gets +50 (up from +20) and not get flipped. Normally i think it's needs too much investment and not worth it.

 

[Kotofei]

Eleanor flips CS's like pancakes in GS, but maybe not R&F.

Kind of annoying, actually, if you were getting nice suzerain bonus, and then...that ka-THUNK sound of a city flipping.....

 

[Lord Lakely]

Eleanor is ridiculous at flipping though. Before Indie Rock was nerfed to -40 loyalty, I legit could flip any city, including capitals with just two Rock Bands triggered on the same turn. Won Domination with it on a huge Pangaea map.

So, if not Eleanor, try Rock Bands with Indie. You'll need three, and the loyalty in the CS has to be neutral or negative and you must trigger all three on the same turn. If you can pull it off however: mayhem.

 

[PiR]

What about Cultists?

 

[criZp]

• City state surrounded by 5 high population cities, none farther than 5 tiles, two at three tiles.
• It's a golden age
• There are very few envoys to this city state (5 other than my own)
• I've got additional pressure from Amani
• I can do bread and circuses from three of the cities

And yet I can't push them into the red.

Obviously not. The three bold points all affect population pressure and maxes out at -20 loyalty and is completely countered by the city states innate +20 loyalty.
Envoys I don't even think affect loyalty anyway, and Amani only add -2 loyalty, which is countered by +3 from amenities.

 

[Aurelesk]

Envoys I don't even think affect loyalty anyway, and Amani only add -2 loyalty, which is countered by +3 from amenities.

Each Envoy gives 1 Loyalty to the City-State. I tend to spend extra Envoy to City-State while playing Eleanor to prevent them to flip to me.

You can counter the innate +20 Loyalty with a -20 Loyalty from Population. Overdoing the Scandal project allows you to bring the competition's Envoys to the City State at 0. Declaring war to a City-State also reset your own Envoy to 0. Just add Amani (-2), Pillage every Amenities to bring them to negative (-3 to -6), and also the Food tiles for -4 Loyalty to Starvation, and you can flip the City... But it is a hard task: it is far easier to just conqueer it instead.

To add in this nonsense: when you refuse a City as Eleanor, the City is now immune to your Loyalty... except Great Work's Loyalty pressure. But since the City cannot flip to you again, it flips to other civilizations thanks to your own Loyalty pressure...
I need to test how a City-State will flip when you refuse the first time, still going to revolt a second time due to Great Work but there is no other civilization that have pressure on it nearby.

 

[Earl of Pembroke]

It might be the right thing to have actually, as what happens if you accidentally absorb the CS of which you are a suzerain, and want to remain such? You don't have a way to restore a CS once it has joined you, do you? (And even worse, it could join your enemy)

If you don't like a city state in the middle of your empire, you have options: capture it with your military or send in the cultists. If its self-protecting loyalty pressure was weakened, then you wouldn't have any options to allow it to be independent. Same thing for a "friendly" CS in the middle of a rival's empire.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Eleanor is ridiculous at flipping though.

Yep. Elanor is great at flipping CS. Play her on TSL Europe and she will flip Cardiff for sure. (Though that's a really great CS to have around late game).