Battle of Guandu

[AnotherPacifist]

The 200AD map is novel--it allows you to play the aggressor (Yuan Shao) and the (initially) defender (Cao Cao). Yuan Shao has Wuwei swordsmen and lots of archers/axemen/horses, while Cao Cao has 1 city to defend: Guandu and 5 good generals (well, Zhang Xiu is so-so). Liu Bei is also at war with you but won't pose any danger and will make peace soon. The trick is 2 words: Qingzhou and defend. Guandu has 150% walls and if you amass troops there, build a catapult or 2 you'll finish off Yuan Shao's army in no time. Then go on the attack and his cities will all be defended by 1-2 archers/axemen.

I even built all the wonders so far (Terracotta Army, Zheng's Academy, Tianlu Library, the Jian'an wonders, Stone Sentinel Maze)--of course I'm playing in monarch for now. Unfortunately, Yuan Shao won't make peace at all and he has all of Gongsun Zan's territory, which means I have to worry about an army of Tiger Riders if I don't continually build troops.

If I play as Yuan Shao, I probably won't make the same mistake of suiciding all my troops on Guandu. There are many catapults and walls are not impregnable. Once Guandu falls, getting to Xu Chang is a breeze with those troops.

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[AnotherPacifist]

I've just won the 2nd battle of Yi Jing (with me winning of course) but there's still 5 or 6 cities to invade when I got this, which made me gave up the game as won:

One problem when you're at permanent war is that people cannot vassalize if they're not at war with Yuan Shao. So, I bribed Ma Teng, Han Sui and Sun Quan to war with Yuan and voila, they all became vassals. Zhang Yan was already at war and didn't vassalize until I built enough military to awe him. Sun Quan I had also asked to war with Liu Biao and even though Sun's is 2nd in score (and built Yue Yang Tower and Kunming Lake), he must have felt being at war with 2 people is too much. (Sun Quan is way more peaceful and wonder-mongering than his brother).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I wonder how one can lose when you have free noble music, 9 bestowments and lots of land and troops. Being organized means that your research can go at 30% even without a single courthouse, and I've chosen Jian'an Lit and 8 Diagrams (got to build that Stone Sentinel Maze before Cao Cao does, because otherwise Xu Chang and Chang An will be impregnable. Zang Ba is a wimp and won't bother you at all. I haven't even built a single freaking troop because I wanted the wonders.

The key is not to attack Guandu, but the whole northern peninsula that has cities guarded by 1-2 archers at most. You have 2 good floor galleys, use them.
This shows the fall of Guandu after 20 rounds of bombardment and by the time it fell, I've already conquered Chen Liu and Peixian. Now on to Qiao and Xu Chang...well, maybe after I build some more catapults.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sigh, it's 208, I'm 30 votes short of a Diplo victory, and finally made peace with Cao Cao via the Temple of Amrita. (I just realized that last game Sun Quan didn't build Yue Yang Tower, it's been delayed to a much later tech). He's down to Guangling and Hong Nong, so I can declare war whenever I can to kill him. Due to my civ trait (famous, i.e. easy to get vassals), all my vassals like me (Ma Teng, Liu Biao, Liu Bei, Gongsun Du and even Zang Ba after I capitulated him). I guess my next target should be Han Sui or Zhang Yan (who's almost totally surrounded by my culture).

 

[Agent327]

The 200AD map is novel--it allows you to play the aggressor (Yuan Shao) and the (initially) defender (Cao Cao). Yuan Shao has Wuwei swordsmen and lots of archers/axemen/horses, while Cao Cao has 1 city to defend: Guandu and 5 good generals (well, Zhang Xiu is so-so). Liu Bei is also at war with you but won't pose any danger and will make peace soon.

Indeed. Where is it at?

 

[xxhe]

Indeed. Where is it at?

The same place as other maps. Map name is 68_64 200AD or something like that.

 

[Agent327]

You mean it it's in the latest patch? (Kind of figured that out while off-line...)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Didn't realize that Study of Family tree is now needed for Daodun swordsmen--Laws of Jin isn't enough any more. Didn't have the patience to go through another domination/conquest. Score was something like 170k.

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[xxhe]

You mean it it's in the latest patch? (Kind of figured that out while off-line...)

Yes

This scenario focuses on the clash between two giant civs- Cao Cao and Yuan Shao. Enjoy it

 

[Kalimakhus]

Nice games AP and Jeelen. I haven't noticed the NEW map till I read this thread. Also funny linguistic misunderstanding

 

[AnotherPacifist]

What a freaking mess Sun Ce left his little brother: lots of Shanyue barbs around (somewhat untidily taken care of by axemen and Danyang, but lost quite a number to those around Le Ling (so THAT'S why Liu Yao's cities are always barbarian when I met Sun Quan before). A smattering of religion around and a good shrine just outside your domain. Well, I repeated the following formula and basically conquered half of Zang Ba and a third of Cao Cao's domains:
1. Use crossbows and catapults (built in the newly conquered cities which can be mostly left undefended) to soften the archers. Never lose a swift rider (very expensive at this time)
2. Promote Xiandeng swordsmen to attack (cheap with slavery/corvee)
3. Finances will be taken care of by looting and conquering cities
4. Heal, repeat and rinse.

It's April 201 AD and I've just built Zheng's Academy which spawned a great priest: guess where he's going to give me more money. I'm have conquered up to Lang Ya, Xia Pi and Pei Xian, and will probably go for Qiao and Xu Chang next.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Cao Cao beat me to the Stone Sentinel Maze, but left only 3 defenders in Xu Chang! No amount of voodoo magic can defend against the furor of Southerners who are willing to sacrifice themselves (read: crossbowmen and catapults).

Gan Ning was the only one who could take 2 archers, and since I had 3, I grouped 2 of them, sacrificed the unit that wasn't the general, and got the other crossbow to join after the first one died. (this probably happens in real life too, just continually regroup your units unless the unit that has the general die)

On to Luoyang!

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[Kalimakhus]

Gan Ning was the only one who could take 2 archers, and since I had 3, I grouped 2 of them, sacrificed the unit that wasn't the general, and got the other crossbow to join after the first one died. (this probably happens in real life too, just continually regroup your units unless the unit that has the general die)

While I do the same all the time but I think it should be considered a bug. Compare it to the case when your unit actually survives. You wouldn't be able to regroup the legion then because a member has already moved this turn. It is as if you get rewarded for losing the unit.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

If he only killed Cao Cao after Red Cliff. Score was 170k only slightly less than my Yuan Shao game with the same map.
One big fault with AI permanent war is that they become so unhappy and locked in their petty fights (Hong Nong was where much of the action was between Cao and Yuan), that they can't do anything about other wars (either of them could have decimated me when I was fighting Liu Biao and Liu Zhang).
Yue Yang had both Military Advisor and Minor Military Command which allowed easy production of troops to dominate the west. Didn't use many of the wonders to their full advantage (e.g. Mo Ling never built any troops despite having Royal Hunting Field, and Kuai Ji had Kunming Lake but never built any ships!).

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[Kenjister]

This scenario is extremely fun when played by a major power, but what what really seems fun is trying to pull of a victory with a minor power.


I really like these sorts of challenges so I was thinking about how I would get around to achieving this one. I've ruled out winning as any of the western nations, simply due to poor commerce, food and production compared to central China. I think Liu Bei would be possible with the three starting generals and decent food production. Just crank out troops with Corvee or Slavery. It might be dangerous though, you're practically surrounded by Cao Cao and his tech rate will soon leave you in the dust. Not to mention a painful lack of metals.

Has anyone tried for victory with a minor power yet?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, Liu Zhang has a decent chance of occupying the entire western part after he eliminates Zhang Lu, get Chang An and war with Cao Cao all the way up to Luoyang. Liu Biao is doomed militarily because of Sun Quan's animosity but he can probably win culturally. Ma Teng has to stop warring with Yuan Shao after getting An Yi and then go all the way to get Chang An first. Han Sui is just plain doomed.

Zang Ba is an interesting play. He has most of Liu Bei's 196AD cities except for Guangling (which is OK because it doesn't have iron). He is virtually completely protected initially by Cao Cao, and after building up enough of an empire (get the 2 Kong Rong cities), he can back stab Cao Cao and get his main cities all the way to Pu Yang, Dong Cheng and even Peishan. He can also vassalize to whoever he befriends and get good techs.

 

[Shiggs713]

Has anyone tried for victory with a minor power yet?

yea, I achieved a diplomatic victory with Zhang Yang on the 68x64 201 AD scenario, prince/epic. Probably could have went up 1 or 2 levels and still won, though it would have definitely taken longer. I actually was only a few percentage points from winning domination, and even with a diplomatic bug still won (Cao Cao was my vassal and was on the ballot and voted for himself, he had 204 votes, and I still won without his votes)

 

[Kenjister]

yea, I achieved a diplomatic victory with Zhang Yang on the 68x64 201 AD scenario, prince/epic. Probably could have went up 1 or 2 levels and still won, though it would have definitely taken longer. I actually was only a few percentage points from winning domination, and even with a diplomatic bug still won (Cao Cao was my vassal and was on the ballot and voted for himself, he had 204 votes, and I still won without his votes)

Nice... Did you spam troops to take out Yuan Shao while he was preoccupied with Cao Cao or did you befriend him? I'm guessing you backstabbed him, as Guan Du is pretty hard to take and it would require more time and effort leading to a bigger tech disadvantage. Also, is it just me, or are Diplo wins the usually method of victory? I'm finding it usually works to cut down on tedious late-game mop-up.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, in the old version and 196AD map where settlers can be built, I think every civ (with the possible exceptions of Shanyue and Bai Bo) can win a cultural win. (Now's it's like impossible with 4 legendary cities)

The 200 AD map is especially unfair to Liu Zhang and Liu Biao (I would have made much more progress and chosen the "right" techs to research and gotten more infrastructure). Sun Quan starts out at a significant tech disadvantage but after killing 15 Shanyue swordsmen it plays out about the same. What really counts is the initial number of cities.

Shiggs you must mean Zhang Yan, not Yang (who's not available in the 200AD map).

 

[Kalimakhus]

While it earned me the best score I ever got with HoTK, I should say that I made several mistakes in this game. It first took me quite long to finish Yuan Shao, due to a couple of oversights that cost me severely in time. I also might have waited too long before I picked up the fight with Liu Biao so he capitulated to Sun Quan right after I took his capitol. This made killing Sun Quan a more time consuming task. Another slip that I consider a crime when playing Cao Cao is that I missed the Chancellor Mansion .

In the last vote chance before the one that got me the Diplo Victory, I got 901 votes while winning required 902 just go figure . I actually paused for a while when the next vote options came up. I had just taken Mo Ling after one of the most exciting battles I ever gone through with civ. It was a matter of time before I get a conquest victory. The army with which I took Mo Ling was actually my reserves. My main army was advancing from the east taking Liu Biao's cities on the southern bank of the river. Anyway, I once again preferred to finish the game as early as possible, I was tired and almost bored, and after smashing Sun Quan armies in three great battles there wasn't likely to be any more excitement in pursuing a conquest victory.

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